why do they have to make engineering so hard?

Removed, because misread part of original post.

Difficulty depends on how compatible you are with the teaching methods. Colleges can't accommodate everyone's preferred form of learning, so the burden is on students to adapt to the way things are taught.

The point of the calculus classes in tech colleges isn't to teach you how to solve integrals - it's to force your brain to adapt more ways to reason about abstract concepts. All STEM fields rely on you being *very* good at abstract reasoning. Knowing how to integrate will likely never be used again in your career, but suffering through the classes will permanently improve your ability to think.

The point of weeding out students is to prevent polluting the job market with people who aren't very good.

I mean why do colleges tend to make engineering their hardest major? I mean whats the point with all this weeding out students? People who love the topic and subject are denied from pursuing it as a career because they made it unneccesarily too hard.

It's not hard - I breezed through a Bachelors and a Masters in Computer Science, with only a single B- to my name. Many others do the same.

Unfortunately (as with any other discipline), some people have a much greater aptitude for computer science than do others. If it truly is your passion, then by all means stick to it, but if you have even the tiniest flicker of doubt, I'd recommend you search for a field where you have both aptitude and passion.

Ask yourself: what is it about engineering that makes you passionate about it? if you can answer that question, we might be able to suggest a related field that would play to that passion equally well.

You're entitled to do basically whatever you want for your own reasons, and no one can tell you how to pursue it or to what extent, but this is called a hobby. Hobbies can be very fulfilling and enjoyable in and of their own making.

However, if you wish to be a professional at whatever it is you have a passion for, then you have to also achieve a base level of knowledge and ability, just like everyone else in that profession. Plenty of kids wanted to fly fighter jets but had poor eyesight, or to be an astronaut but were too tall. Be grateful that calculus is probably something you can work at long and hard enough to overcome if that's the path you want, but you're not entitled for anyone to make it fun or easy for you. Some people have more natural ability or uptake at certain activities. That's life. Some people are dealt a hand that plays into their goals, and others aren't. Some into riches, and some into dirt.

That said, if you want to be a programmer, you usually don't need a great deal of math beyond algebra, trig, linear algebra. Knowing enough calculus to work through a problem with references is helpful, and the more-skilled you are, the better. But it's not like you need to be able to recall the hundreds of calculus identities from memory or you'll be worthless.

Calculus 3 is about where I started having difficulties, but I've still used applied calculus in programs, and it's never been a roadblock to anything I wanted to achieve.

You're entitled to do basically whatever you want for your own reasons, and no one can tell you how to pursue it or to what extent, but this is called a hobby. Hobbies can be very fulfilling and enjoyable in and of their own making.

However, if you wish to be a professional at whatever it is you have a passion for, then you have to also achieve a base level of knowledge and ability, just like everyone else in that profession. Plenty of kids wanted to fly fighter jets but had poor eyesight, or to be an astronaut but were too tall. Be grateful that calculus is probably something you can work at long and hard enough to overcome if that's the path you want, but you're not entitled for anyone to make it fun or easy for you. Some people have more natural ability or uptake at certain activities. That's life. Some people are dealt a hand that plays into their goals, and others aren't. Some into riches, and some into dirt.

That said, if you want to be a programmer, you usually don't need a great deal of math beyond algebra, trig, linear algebra. Knowing enough calculus to work through a problem with references is helpful, and the more-skilled you are, the better. But it's not like you need to be able to recall the hundreds of calculus identities from memory or you'll be worthless.

Calculus 3 is about where I started having difficulties, but I've still used applied calculus in programs, and it's never been a roadblock to anything I wanted to achieve.

/sign I guess your right. It

You're entitled to do basically whatever you want for your own reasons, and no one can tell you how to pursue it or to what extent, but this is called a hobby. Hobbies can be very fulfilling and enjoyable in and of their own making.

However, if you wish to be a professional at whatever it is you have a passion for, then you have to also achieve a base level of knowledge and ability, just like everyone else in that profession. Plenty of kids wanted to fly fighter jets but had poor eyesight, or to be an astronaut but were too tall. Be grateful that calculus is probably something you can work at long and hard enough to overcome if that's the path you want, but you're not entitled for anyone to make it fun or easy for you. Some people have more natural ability or uptake at certain activities. That's life. Some people are dealt a hand that plays into their goals, and others aren't. Some into riches, and some into dirt.

That said, if you want to be a programmer, you usually don't need a great deal of math beyond algebra, trig, linear algebra. Knowing enough calculus to work through a problem with references is helpful, and the more-skilled you are, the better. But it's not like you need to be able to recall the hundreds of calculus identities from memory or you'll be worthless.

Calculus 3 is about where I started having difficulties, but I've still used applied calculus in programs, and it's never been a roadblock to anything I wanted to achieve.

*sign* i guess your right. Its just not easy dealing with a shattered dream, but I'll get over it eventually

Where are you? Computer Engineering is very different from Computer Science at the university I went to, and is much more about designing electronic components (like electrical engineering) than writing software for them, which is presumably what you want to focus on for game development.

Have you checked around for other degree programs that involve software development?

If it makes you feel any better I went through hell to get my degree but I still came out on the other side with a 3.1 GPA and a bachelors in CIS. I love writing software but the math part was very difficult for me. I had to retake one math course three times before I passed with a decent grade. I now have a professional job writing automation software that pays well and is very fulfilling most of the time.

The point I am trying to make is that it IS possible to prevail in the face of tremendous adversity. I recommend you make the sacrifices necessary to continue pursuing your dreams. Don't give up till the bitter end.

I don't know how much I relate as I never took any pure engineering courses, I got my undergraduate in Mathematics and am now pursuing a PhD in the same field.

But I find that a lot of fields that are as rigorous as mathematics, physics, or engineering, a lot of people have trouble coming to terms with the first time they are expected to work out methods of solving problems, instead of using given methods to just plug into. The first foundations of analysis class that I took had a bunch of people taking it for the third time, it was known as one of those 'weeding out' courses.

I hit that point where it seemed like what I thought I loved was too difficult the first time I took a serious course on Partial Differential Equations. I later retook it after much more study and many of the things that gave me trouble were because I was over thinking it.

You have to know your calculus for most scientific and engineering fields. If you truly love engineering you will be willing to put the work into it. Don't worry too much about it.

By no means should you be discouraged if its what you want to do, you just have to be prepared for the fact that you're going to have to work harder, and that you might not reach the same echelons that someone with greater natural aptitude might. You can do quite well on aptitude or hard work alone, but the truly great usually have a good measure of both.

Maybe you don't have the success you would hope for, but you've only got one life to live, so give it all you've got, and if you fail, do it over again just to be sure.

I didn't pass every college course I took either, the first time through.

"I mean why do colleges tend to make engineering their hardest major?"

1. It's not. Physics, to pick one subject, is way harder than either Comp.Eng or Comp.Sci.

2. It's hard because actually doing engineering is hard. Sorry. It's getting you ready for a life where you have to worry about the states of individual bits and also about structures in the tera, peta or exa scale in an environment where maths meets reality meets human psychology.

I mean whats the point with all this weeding out students?

Having worked at an university in R&D but also a bit in teaching I took part in a lot of discussions about "weeding out students" or having very tough assessments to get a degree. There were always a few points coming up, not just concerning IT but also other fields of engineering.
First the ideological points like: "I want the engineers that design the aircraft I'm traveling in/house I live in/surgery-robot that operates on me to be the very best". Also we do not want that student to be the one that is in the press for being responsible that a train with 500 people derailed, because he could not calculate the radius of a curve the right way.

Another point was often the image of the university, because giving a degree to every lazy yokel that managed to filled out the application form correctly and managed to show up at the lectures for a couple of years, will in the lessen the value of the degree of the hardworking students that really got into their field.

And lastly there is the industry desperately in need for "qualified engineers", demanding from the university to produce more of those highly-qualified workers, which could be done by skipping the weeding-out-process.

I've known some students who have failed dynamics three times in a row. They are 26 yeard old and still a sophmore in engineering.

Not to sound too cynical, but maybe university-level-engineering is just not yet cut for them. Maybe they would be better off being on the more hands-on side of the business. Maybe they need a bit of time working on the field without a degree to be ready for the more theoretical part of engineering.

I mean would it be a crime to make studying engineering fun, intuitive and enjoyable rather than the regurgitation/rote memorization fest it is right now?

It would be if it meant neglecting some of the rather dry but necessary groundwork needed for this. Some topics are nearly impossible to teach in a "fun/hands-on" way, especially in field that is abstract as math or computer science (not enigneering)

Don't lose hope. Keep the difference between engineering and computer science in mind. I know many people who did engineering, and yes it is very hard. The reason likely comes from the mindset "we can't afford to let people who design bridges make mistakes". But if your passion is games or websites or modelling applications... none of that applies. That's where computer science comes in. It's all about coding and algorithms. Making mistakes generally is not considered a sin. We don't (generally) do bizarre and obscure physical simulations like the Navier Stokes equations etc, so we don't need that kind of maths. Sure, we need some, but it's not our bread and butter. Look into computer science. I think it would be a better fit for you.

I mean why do colleges tend to make engineering their hardest major? I mean whats the point with all this weeding out students? People who love the topic and subject are denied from pursuing it as a career because they made it unneccesarily too hard. I really wanted to become a computer engineer. I took a calculus class. I was literally putting 20 hours a week into it and got a C. Whats with that? I only got a C because that was the only class I was taking aside from entry level english. I've known some students who have failed dynamics three times in a row. They are 26 yeard old and still a sophmore in engineering. I mean I feel so depressed, I dont feel life has a point since I cant pursue my love. Recently Ive just been picking up programming books and studying it myself since I love it, but whats the point if I cant make a career out of this. I dont want to do some career I have no interest. Some people tell me to go to accounting since its easier, but I think its dry and boring. But engineering is way too hard. So depressing. I mean would it be a crime to make studying engineering fun, intuitive and enjoyable rather than the regurgitation/rote memorization fest it is right now? Whats your opinion on how colleges/universities teach engineering? Agree/disagree?

You know what? I took Precalc II four times before I got a grade better than a C. I'm certainly not dumb, but at the time, I had been breezing through my math courses without studying, so that become a bad habit for me which was tough to break. I took Calc I twice, and Calc II twice. Okay, maybe I'm a bit slow or lazy. Mostly lazy to the point that I'm a moron. But, you know what I really, really wanted? To get a four year degree in CS. I didn't give a damn on what it took, how many times I'd have to retake a course, how much money I'd have to spend, etc. I pushed my way through the obstacles and got the degree. In hindsight, would I change anything? No. Having to retake those classes multiple times got me quite practiced at algebra and trig, developed the study habits I'd need in my later courses, honed my drive and work ethic, taught me I'm somewhat dumb (which was humbling), taught me how I learn, taught me my strengths and weaknesses and highlighted my human nature, and made my brain more logic oriented.

So, how much do you really want to get into engineering and how far are you willing to go?

Engineering classes are hard because engineering is hard! Engineering is hard because the universe is complicated. If you don't like it, complain to the universe and ask it to simplify itself.

I have seen people be deemed not fit for CS programs fail many times only to come back again more passionately and actually graduate/pass their courses. They spend more time on it but they learn from their failures. It is okay to fail as long as we learn from our mistakes(find your mistakes and correct them). We all come from different backgrounds and learn at a different pace.

Failure is the mother of all success. Remember this and you will do fine. Follow your passion and never listen to the pessimistic people

Be stubborn as the mountain(never give up) during a storm, it takes many hits(failures) but it still stands afterwards(keep on going).

I think I'd be worried if I went to a school whose engineering program wasn't hard. I think I'd also be worried if I were one of the companies that liked to hire engineering grads from that school. Where I went to college the school had a good relationship with Lockheed Martin, and sent a lot of graduates over there to start their careers. I doubt that relationship would have worked out as well if my school just handed an engineering degree to everybody who enrolled. But I'm just speculating about that, so don't quote me on it or anything.

At the time I also thought my Comp. Engineering curriculum was tough. Especially since we had essentially 5 years of courses crammed into 4...I used to get really jealous of the students in other majors who could work out their schedule so that they had a day off during the week, or take more than 2 electives. But now I'm glad that I was exposed to all of that subject material, because I find myself coming back to it all of the time in my daily work as a graphics programmer.

I think I'd be worried if I went to a school whose engineering program wasn't hard. I think I'd also be worried if I were one of the companies that liked to hire engineering grads from that school. Where I went to college the school had a good relationship with Lockheed Martin, and sent a lot of graduates over there to start their careers. I doubt that relationship would have worked out as well if my school just handed an engineering degree to everybody who enrolled. But I'm just speculating about that, so don't quote me on it or anything.

At the time I also thought my Comp. Engineering curriculum was tough. Especially since we had essentially 5 years of courses crammed into 4...I used to get really jealous of the students in other majors who could work out their schedule so that they had a day off during the week, or take more than 2 electives. But now I'm glad that I was exposed to all of that subject material, because I find myself coming back to it all of the time in my daily work as a graphics programmer.

Im not saying that schools should stop making it challenging, but they shouldnt make it bone-crushingly hard, where you pretty much lose your whole life for the next 5-6 years

Im not saying that schools should stop making it challenging, but they shouldnt make it bone-crushingly hard, where you pretty much lose your whole life for the next 5-6 years

It's not that they intentionally making it hard. Teaching is hard, and teaching a lot of people are harder, and teaching a set of subjects to a lot of people in a semeter/quarter is even more difficult. If you put 20 hours a week and get a C, then obviously you probably should've put more hours.

Schools won't teach you everything. That's a fact.
Schools cram too many subjects in a three-four months period. That's another fact.

It's your job to fill in the gaps. Sometimes you even have to start studying before the school starts.

It's your job to fill in the gaps. Sometimes you even have to start studying before the school starts.

Precisely. I have to imagine if a computer engineer degree is anything like the CS one it's one that requires an out of the class interest in the subject. I'm on my last semester of my masters for instance and it's a cake walk since I program in my spare time and during my job. I'd have to say, with just what I've read on the forums, that those who succeed as programmers have a passion for it and usually began programming by themselves before they began taking formal classes. This is important because CS is a massive field.

That said if math is challenging then you need to spend out of class time reading and practicing and learn to like it. In computer science we pretty much only use calculus 2 material. You have to know calculus. It comes up so much in engineering that you can't just pretend to know it. Anything past the basics is going to need integrals. Physics 2 (Electricity and Magnetism) for instance you would fail instantly if you didn't know calculus and chose to take it as an elective. Solving run-times for instance instance and you'll run into calculus concepts. (I just used l'Hopital's rule yesterday for instance to solve a problem). Some of the stuff you see might seem like it has no application, but trust me it does. It's just that covering the application for it i often outside the scope of a math class.

Im not saying that schools should stop making it challenging, but they shouldnt make it bone-crushingly hard, where you pretty much lose your whole life for the next 5-6 years

And if they made it 'easier' then it won't be worth as much as anyone could pass them - the whole point of a qualification is to set some sort of bar.

Let say you make it twice as easy; great, now maybe twice as many people pass, but now you are fighting against twice as many people for less spots because companies will raise the bar on what they require for jobs and you'll be no better off in real terms.

To me, however, the crux of the matter is this line;

I mean would it be a crime to make studying engineering fun, intuitive and enjoyable rather than the regurgitation/rote memorization fest it is right now?
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Unless you know the subject then the simple act of learning SHOULD be enjoyable for you, it should be some sort of passion and something where just finding out something new is like 'hey, thats cool...'.

I have spent the last week now doing 10h+ days trying to sort some code out; it has been frustrating, it has had me swearing (both at the code and those around me for related reasons) and it's got me pretty wound up and stressed due to a deadline - BUT despite all that I'm still, in a twisted way, enjoying it because I've a passion for doing what I do.

It doesn't need to be 'easy', it doesn't need to be 'fun' or 'intuitive' but it is still fun - if you aren't enjoying the act of learning about a subject then honest I would sit down and have a hard think about WHY you are doing this and what you hope to get out of it and consider what else you might enjoy.

Life is a short old thing, far too short to be burning time on something you don't enjoy learning about...