Assymetric (player vs computer) combat (turn based strategy)

The player has:

- a pool of units (police & army), there are like 25 units total max, each has type and strength (1-6); these units can be depolyed to any province anytime (teleportation), but there are only 4 unit slots per province.

This is the biggest core "problem" here imho. I don't know why do you insist on "unplausible" as in unrealistic way of moving units(sorta whackamole), why not make a simple and intuitive logistics representation? it could be simplified and might as well actually be easier for players to pick up, as well as offering more meaningful tactical choices, rather than make up totally arbitrary rules, which might lead to further balancing issues even at this scope.

Each province has population (that can migrate to other provinces) and some infrastructure.

If there is infrastructure, it begs things like airports, tv stations, administrative/governmental buildings, taking control of these leads to different logical effects. Here if you connect moving units and infrastructure in a meaningful way, some interesting mechanics can emerge, like if rebel took control of a local airport, you can no longer "teleport" there and will have to move on the land, as well as maybe introduce building, like building airports in outer provinces, or tv stations if you wanna increase your support and so on.

Do adjacent territories suffer from a region under rebel control?

I believe a fun part of gameplay to eradicate a threat would be to contain it from the outside first (move police/army to all adjacent territories to prevent spread).

You could affect how effective the rebels are by having an invisible system that assumes they get their weapons from other regions. If there are no adjacent regions in which some rebel cell can operate, the region's rebellious forces would be weaker to overtake?

This is the biggest core "problem" here imho. I don't know why do you insist on "unplausible" as in unrealistic way of moving units(sorta whackamole), why not make a simple and intuitive logistics representation? it could be simplified and might as well actually be easier for players to pick up, as well as offering more meaningful tactical choices, rather than make up totally arbitrary rules, which might lead to further balancing issues even at this scope.

There are 8 provinces. If there are only 8 places units can be, does it make any sense to take logistics intro account? In 90% cases you will be neighbouring the province you would want to move to anyway...

If there is infrastructure, it begs things like airports, tv stations, administrative/governmental buildings, taking control of these leads to different logical effects. Here if you connect moving units and infrastructure in a meaningful way [...]

These buildings are inside cities, while units operate on province level. You can't even see these buildings on the province map.

In theory I could try to divide provinces into separate "tactical zones"... but I'm not sure it would work well with the rest of the game.

Do adjacent territories suffer from a region under rebel control?

Yes. As for adjacent I too think it's fun, but again, I don't think it will be so important in a standard 8 provinces map...

Yes. As for adjacent I too think it's fun, but again, I don't think it will be so important in a standard 8 provinces map...

I can see fun and critical decision making because of one of your gameplay mechanics:

(if the control level of your capital province falls below 50% you instantly lose the game)

Essentially, the player will be left managing the risk of insuring his capital remains untouched by the influence area of a province that is slowly falling against the hope of re-establishing order in a profitable province.

Because there is risk/reward in both, even in a small map of 8 provinces, the choice will be critical (moreso when it affects a province not immediately adjacent to your capital).

I can see fun and critical decision making because of one of your gameplay mechanics:

Acharis, on 01 Jun 2014 - 7:32 PM, said:


(if the control level of your capital province falls below 50% you instantly lose the game)

Essentially, the player will be left managing the risk of insuring his capital remains untouched by the influence area of a province that is slowly falling against the hope of re-establishing order in a profitable province.

Because there is risk/reward in both, even in a small map of 8 provinces, the choice will be critical (moreso when it affects a province not immediately adjacent to your capital).

I see... I will expand the idea then.

* Provinces are not equal, some are mountainous with crappy plantations and very low population and maybe even bonuses for rebels (the breeding ground for rebels) while some contain cities (with police stations, propaganda centers) and are critical to the player. My idea was that the player sacrifaces (at least temporarily) a lame province and focuses on the important ones.

* Possible "country stability" penalties: if the player loses control of a standard province -2 (per 10% loss of control), if a city province -5, if capital province -10, if mountainous -1. Then based on the total value various effects are triggered (people think you are weak, loss of reputation, invasion of another country, additional rebels join, usurpers thinking it's a great moment to overthrow you, and so on).

* Spread of rebelius ideas - a province get's a penalty/bonus to support change based on the support level of all NEIGHBOUR provinces (so if a neighbour province don't love you, the province slowly moves toward rebels as well - can be stopped/delayed/reversed by deployment of police and/or skillful propaganda). It's also reverse, if the nighbours are pro government the province will tend to favour government more as well (to an extend, it won't turn 100% just because of neighbours).

* During rebelion (event) there will be a bonus to support change in favour of rebels (concentration of rebels propaganda, assassination of pro government individuals, etc), after rebelion is crushed (all non yellow rebel units eliminated and at least 50% control of all provinces) there will be a short (few turns) pro government bonus, then it becomes neutral again.

Deploying/Moving units:

What you think about the 4 slots for player units? Note it's consistent & compatible with the rest of the game (drag & drop mechanic)...

And maybe I should introduce some limits to moving? Like locking a unit after a move/deployment? Or making some "logistics points" (1 point per deployment used, regenerates at a rate +5 per turn)? I don't know.

There are 8 provinces. If there are only 8 places units can be, does it make any sense to take logistics intro account? In 90% cases you will be neighbouring the province you would want to move to anyway...

Deploying/Moving units:

What you think about the 4 slots for player units? Note it's consistent & compatible with the rest of the game (drag & drop mechanic)...

And maybe I should introduce some limits to moving? Like locking a unit after a move/deployment? Or making some "logistics points" (1 point per deployment used, regenerates at a rate +5 per turn)? I don't know.

Plausible logistics not only change the way you deploy units, it's also plays a natural balancing role by limiting, say the amount of troops you can place/move to/in any given province, it creates operational space for tactical decisions at least for a few turns ahead. Plus you can avoid arbitrary limitations and excessive abstraction that makes the game unnecessarily complicated by loading it with a bunch of arbitrary rules, I'd rather go with intuitive simplistic realism in form of logistics.

What you think about the 4 slots for player units? Note it's consistent & compatible with the rest of the game (drag & drop mechanic)... - I don't like it, what's the point of this limitation? So you can't drop too many? It's an outright blatant limitation, I'd rather wanna see more meaningful balancing mechanics instead. Imho overuse of abstract rules can create a headache later on in attempts to balance it.

What you think about the 4 slots for player units? Note it's consistent & compatible with the rest of the game (drag & drop mechanic)... - I don't like it, what's the point of this limitation? So you can't drop too many? It's an outright blatant limitation, I'd rather wanna see more meaningful balancing mechanics instead. Imho overuse of abstract rules can create a headache later on in attempts to balance it.

Visuals :( I made sketches and stacking looks bad, so far only by using slots you will be able to see all units on the whole map at once.

Another (but far less important) "bonus" is that it allows more tactical choices (can't use zerg tactic and send to one place all cheapest unts; also makes stronger units more useful, since you can't supplement them by hundreds of weak units).

Alternatively I could make just 2 slots/stacks (one for police and one for army) and then you can drop there as many (identical) units as you want (and there will be counter how many are present there already). But it also kind of cheapens the tactics (you simply prioritize provinces by throwing at it the quantity, can't have differnet units types as well).

V

Visuals I made sketches and stacking looks bad, so far only by using slots you will be able to see all units on the whole map at once.

Another (but far less important) "bonus" is that it allows more tactical choices (can't use zerg tactic and send to one place all cheapest unts; also makes stronger units more useful, since you can't supplement them by hundreds of weak units).

Still it aint the reason imho to castrate the game, I'd rather try for a workaround, then to simply cut away at freedom of choice. The zerg mechanic can be balanced in many ways, supply for example and other plausible "deterrents", intuitive and simple features interconnected with logistics. Lets say moving and stationing troops past a certain amount gives a penalty, like attrition or smtng, plenty of ways to balance it naturally imho.

Alternatively I could make just 2 slots/stacks (one for police and one for army) and then you can drop there as many (identical) units as you want (and there will be counter how many are present there already). But it also kind of cheapens the tactics (you simply prioritize provinces by throwing at it the quantity, can't have differnet units types as well).

Try to correct the problem graphically, don't rush, look at games with stacks, try different ideas, but again don't butcher da freedom because of this.

Edit: just wanned to add, that if you are facing problems like that, imho always avoid arbitrary limitations and overly abstract mechanics in attempts to balance, in this case it's a band-aid, that will cause lotsa problems and will make the game lot less intuitive/simple, a game which can be easily decoded and "cookie-cut" and forgotten.

Still it aint the reason imho to castrate the game, I'd rather try for a workaround, then to simply cut away at freedom of choice.

Well, slots provide far more choices and more rich gameplay, but I see players thinking like you do. Since it's not a wargame I can simplify it I suppose :)

How about this:

- there are two stacks (police and army) per province, there is an icon displayed with a number below (how many units) and tiny +/- buttons to deploy/recall units from the province

- there are of course identical units in each stack (all police is identical and all army is identical)

- you have 25 units total (police) and around 12 (army) on average (more on bigger maps)

- units are kept in the pool, you can deply them when you want

- there are logistic points, deplying in a province costs 2 logistic points (1 in provinces with a city), you get +8 logistic points per turn and can store like 12 total? Recalling a units is free.

- to deploy a unit in a province it either needs to be 50% controled by you or have a neighbour with 80% control

Well, slots provide far more choices and more rich gameplay, but I see players thinking like you do. Since it's not a wargame I can simplify it I suppose

I don't see how abstract, unplausible limitations provide more choices, what they certainly provide is another arbitrary rule to learn for a player(complication) and another balancing headache for the developer, it's my personal opinion though, I might be wrong ofc.

I tried to argue how plausible logistics based rules could create tactically/strategically meaningful choices without resorting to band-aids in form of outright abstract limitations, and so far I haven't seen arguments that would convince me as a potential player that mechanic you're proposing(made up limits) is fun.

How about this:

- there are two stacks (police and army) per province, there is an icon displayed with a number below (how many units) and tiny +/- buttons to deploy/recall units from the province

- there are of course identical units in each stack (all police is identical and all army is identical)

- you have 25 units total (police) and around 12 (army) on average (more on bigger maps)

- that's fine I guess, try to find a screenshot of another game or what have you to illustrate it more clearly, if you mean deploy as recruitment, than yes, it seems fine.

- ok

- Limits on amount of troops could be done plausibly as a natural limiting factor of supply mechanic, as it's done in myriad of games, I think it will be a lot more realistic if this limitation would emerge naturally as an effect of supply+logistics mechanic. This way imho you can kill 2 targets with one shot - familliar/intuitive on one hand and realistic and simple on the other, as well as avoiding abstract limits and at least adding to realism and freedom of choises imho. I'm for plausible mechanics that balance the game rather than abstract rules.

- units are kept in the pool, you can deply them when you want

- there are logistic points, deplying in a province costs 2 logistic points (1 in provinces with a city), you get +8 logistic points per turn and can store like 12 total? Recalling a units is free.

- to deploy a unit in a province it either needs to be 50% controled by you or have a neighbour with 80% control

Tbh I think it won't do, too complicated, too abstract. If you have pop in a game and I think you need to, you can tie recruitment to amount of pop in a given province, depending on the amount of control you have maybe? Deploying as in moving could be tied to province infrastructure, depending on things like airports, roads. This obvioulsy leads to having control of a province reflect the infrastructure objects being taken, in other words - 10% could mean peacefull protests without rebels/protesters taking hold of important infrastructure objects(occupy wallstreet), and at say 30% rebels can say occupy some goverment building or logistics/media infrastructure and at a 100% you get Kiev, Maidan. As well as each object lost leads to a certain consequence, like losing airport prevents you to deploy forces quickly this way, losing admin buildings may lead to inability to recruit or supply troops adequately and so on. This as well obviously leads to being able to deploy units not just all in a province, but to deploy them on certain objects, as lets say sending army to a city may have negative effects and you might be better off sending them to objects outside of city centre, say airports, ports and so on and reserve police for that if situation doesnt require army.

I don't see how abstract, unplausible limitations provide more choices, what they certainly provide is another arbitrary rule to learn for a player(complication) and another balancing headache for the developer, it's my personal opinion though, I might be wrong ofc.

I tried to argue how plausible logistics based rules could create tactically/strategically meaningful choices without resorting to band-aids in form of outright abstract limitations, and so far I haven't seen arguments that would convince me as a potential player that mechanic you're proposing(made up limits) is fun.

Yeah, I suspect players might say the same think, and I would end up explaining and defending my position why it's better. Also, as you pointed out, being fun is a different story.

(just for the sake of information - since I won't be going back to slots - one example of advantage of slots in terms och choices and richness is the ability to introiduce different unit types (a unique unit in any slot, not one unified stack), anyway, I agree it might be confusing to people who don't play "eurogames")

This as well obviously leads to being able to deploy units not just all in a province, but to deploy them on certain objects, as lets say sending army to a city may have negative effects and you might be better off sending them to objects outside of city centre, say airports, ports and so on and reserve police for that if situation doesnt require army.

Not possible, the deployment is per province, not per object.

I also inluded a screen, it's for deployment of secret police agents, but the premise is the same (or very similar).

Tbh I think it won't do, too complicated, too abstract. If you have pop in a game and I think you need to, you can tie recruitment to amount of pop in a given province, depending on the amount of control you have maybe? Deploying as in moving could be tied to province infrastructure, depending on things like airports, roads. This obvioulsy leads to having control of a province reflect the infrastructure objects being taken, in other words - 10% could mean peacefull protests without rebels/protesters taking hold of important infrastructure objects(occupy wallstreet), and at say 30% rebels can say occupy some goverment building or logistics/media infrastructure and at a 100% you get Kiev, Maidan.

Well, that's no choice at all... You will be soo restricted in deplyment it makes it very shallow tactically :)

(note the deployment per province, no objects)

Anyway, first another question, if there is no pool where the units start? You mean you click "emergency, deploy police" and then huge stacks of police pop up in provinces with cities and then you struggle to move them around other provinces (it also makes you city provinces basicly immune at the start of the rebelion)? Also how you say what portion of your forces you want to mobilize? And to where you demobilize forces (like you see it's a bit dangerous but you can recall the most of your forces so they don't scare the population and not make you bankrupt of upkeep).

(just for the sake of information - since I won't be going back to slots - one example of advantage of slots in terms och choices and richness is the ability to introiduce different unit types (a unique unit in any slot, not one unified stack), anyway, I agree it might be confusing to people who don't play "eurogames")

Don't know what it has to do with eurogames, I played shit tons of Paradox games, if they can be considered "eurogame", either way, we're obviuosly fundamentally differ in our understanding of "choices and richness", for me slots and such is an atavism of board games, and I just don't see how it helps anything except as a balancing band-aid, unplausible and unrealistic and unintuitive, simply lame-ass mechanic/feature, imho - the definition of "gimmick".

How exactly slots provide choises and freedom? I just can't understand that.

Well, that's no choice at all... You will be soo restricted in deplyment it makes it very shallow tactically

(note the deployment per province, no objects)

This made zero sence to me, so limited fixed amount of slots - isn't a restricted limitation? But "plausible logistics based rules could create tactically/strategically meaningful choices" - is a "shallow limitation"??? HOW EXACTLY???

Not possible, the deployment is per province, not per object.

I also inluded a screen, it's for deployment of secret police agents, but the premise is the same (or very similar).

Not possible in ur head? Or not possible as a game feature?

Anyway, first another question, if there is no pool where the units start? You mean you click "emergency, deploy police" and then huge stacks of police pop up in provinces with cities and then you struggle to move them around other provinces (it also makes you city provinces basicly immune at the start of the rebelion)?

I didn't say that - "emergency, deploy police" and I wasn't implying it either. I said - "...tie recruitment to amount of pop in a given province...", elaborating further, other features could be interconnected here, like again the amount of control, supply+logistics could be connected with pop state, things like loyalty, happiness, that you would need to have anyway, they can be balancing the "deployment/movement/stationing" mechanic" by intuitive/plausible limits that emerge from interconnecting elements/features mentioned as an example from top of my head.

Also how you say what portion of your forces you want to mobilize? And to where you demobilize forces (like you see it's a bit dangerous but you can recall the most of your forces so they don't scare the population and not make you bankrupt of upkeep).

Simple really, like it works in a real life, "mobilization/demobilization" mechanic, for example if recruitment/deployment takes x amount of time, then lets say that recruitment incorporates things like training your men(police academy, military training), then they become reserve force that you can "mobilize", the number will be in this case naturally limited by resources you have(pop,infra.,time,etc), once demobilized - they return to "reserve force" either back in the "native province" or into the "local pool" and cost a lot less to sustain than mobilizied forces, maybe an option as well to demobilize completely and remove them from a "pool of reserve forces", this is the simplest I could think of, while trying to stay plausible/intuitive and avoid overuse of arbitrary abstract rules.

Short: pop+resource ->recruitment+training=reserve force/demobilized -> active duty/mobilized

Mobilization/demobilization is actually a good idea imho, especially if time becomes a factor, in this case planning ahead and having a strategy will be important, since you'd have to think ahead to be able "to be in the right place at the right time", which I think is one of the main game mechanic in this case, so everything that adds to it imho is good, like infrastructure and logistics and other things of that nature.

Don't know what it has to do with eurogames, I played shit tons of Paradox games, if they can be considered "eurogame", either way, we're obviuosly fundamentally differ in our understanding of "choices and richness", for me slots and such is an atavism of board games

No, Paradox games definitely have nothing to do with eurogames And yes, slots are an atavism of board games :)

Honestly, I was kind of trying to make it a bit like a board game :D Which not necessarily is the best idea it seems... Well, the map is small, so it screams "I'm some sort of boardgame" :D But on the other hand, I know of only one game that has at least some elements of a modern eurogame (Settlers 7) so computer games players are really not used to the idea... I see how it could be more confusing than I expected.

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Not possible, the deployment is per province, not per object.
I also inluded a screen, it's for deployment of secret police agents, but the premise is the same (or very similar).

Not possible in ur head? Or not possible as a game feature?

http://www.gamedev.net/topic/656560-macroeconomy/#entry5153582 (the first screen)

Here you see all top level structures (cities and plantations). Now, imagine if these small (32x32) plantation icons need to contain the information how many army units are present, how many police units and how many rebels (of various kinds (red/orange/yellow)).

And that's not all since cities have a separate screen (when you clicked on a city a new screen opens up).

http://www.gamedev.net/topic/656560-macroeconomy/#entry5156220

So these units probably should be present inside a city as well.

I'm extremelly sceptical it's doable :D

I didn't say that - "emergency, deploy police" and I wasn't implying it either. I said - "...tie recruitment to amount of pop in a given province...",

Oh! No, no, the police is the force you already own, you don't recruit them when rebelion starts. You need to recruit them before rebelion. So 99% of time they all stay in the "local pool" as you named it (in a normal situation 100% of them should stay demobilized).

Generally the story is like that, you have some police forces, they go around catching thieves and such. Then a rebelion starts, you emergency dispatch your police to subdue rebels (so they drop catching thieves and doing their regular diuties - which means crime and havock, so it's best to not deploy them all).

You also have army and they sit in bases and train. When a rebelion starts you can deploy them to provinces, they are quite efficient but the bystanders civilian casualities are high (they are not police that were trained to handle crowds and generally use non lethal force) plus the military costs skyrocket (airplanes, tanks, ammunition, fuel, etc; sitting in a base is one thing, waging a war against rebels is a completely different upkeep level).

Any other thoughts/ideas?