Whats the point in hobby game programming?

What's the point in any hobby? If you're not getting personal enjoyment from it then you should stop doing it and find something you do like.

I don't think you really understand the meaning of the word 'hobby'...

It led into a career for me, and it was fun even before that. As the others said, if that's how you feel then there's no real reason to continue.

What is the point of any hobby? It is just something you do because you enjoy to do it. Not everyone makes a career out of their hobbies. If you are doing it with the sole purpose of making a career out of it, then you are doing it for the wrong reason. I have a BS in Game and Simulation Programming, and have never bothered applying to a game industry job since getting it (I let the career advisor shop a resume around, but she kept sending it to non industry jobs too, like 2nd Shift Supervisor for UPS -- yes the mail company with brown trucks) mainly because I'm happier having my own time that I work rather than being forced to work the hours they want. Not to mention, I don't have to answer to anyone for my game ideas (well my wife) if they go too far. When I first started I wanted to be in the industry, but now, I've come to accept I will never be in it and with people like Fish, Gjoni, and Quinn giving the indie scene a bad name with their childish antics, it may be for the best seeing as everyone remembers the negatives more than the positives. Basically, as JTippetts said, if you are no longer enjoying it, then stop doing it and find something else you enjoy doing as no one is holding a gun to your head to be a hobbyist game programmer.

Yeah you guys are right. I think im just burnt out at the moment. Ive been coding nonstop everyday for 3 years straight. Im gonna wrap up my current project and take a break for a couple of months.

Burnt out is the new Aspberger's.

Yeah you guys are right. I think im just burnt out at the moment. Ive been coding nonstop everyday for 3 years straight. Im gonna wrap up my current project and take a break for a couple of months.

In my personal experience, when I take several months off, and force myself to stay "off" for the time period I set in advance, it makes me eager to jump back in again when I resume.

I definitely agree with finishing your current project (even a rushed 'finish' is better than "putting it on pause"), and I also suggest giving yourself a "return date", say, 100 days from when you stop. You don't have to return after that return date, but you should force yourself to stay away until that return date. If you really enjoy programming as a hobby, then forcing yourself to stay away will help you recognize that. Absence, as the saying goes, makes the heart grow fonder.

Yeah you guys are right. I think im just burnt out at the moment. Ive been coding nonstop everyday for 3 years straight. Im gonna wrap up my current project and take a break for a couple of months.

In my personal experience, when I take several months off, and force myself to stay "off" for the time period I set in advance, it makes me eager to jump back in again when I resume.

I definitely agree with finishing your current project (even a rushed 'finish' is better than "putting it on pause"), and I also suggest giving yourself a "return date", say, 100 days from when you stop. You don't have to return after that return date, but you should force yourself to stay away until that return date. If you really enjoy programming as a hobby, then forcing yourself to stay away will help you recognize that. Absence, as the saying goes, makes the heart grow fonder.

Thanks, you are correct. I still do love it deep down. I just need to take a break. Coding a 2d engine tired out my brain looks like.

There are multiple psychological studies that states this:

you cut people in 2 groups, and ask them to do something reasonably fun/interesting.

the 2 groups perform the same in the first session.

then you pay one group a few bucks for each task performed.

then 2 weeks later, delete the reward and while the first group continues to perform the task the same, the group which received the reward virtually stops to do any task.

conclusion, anything that is fun, becomes a pain when it becomes professional and associated to external rewards.

Those studies are part of self determination theory, which distinguish intrinsic motivation and extrinsinc motivations.

if you like game making, just keep it as a hobby. Or, make a startup and attempt to do your own venture, but if it fails, after that its the end of it.

There are multiple psychological studies that states this:
you cut people in 2 groups, and ask them to do something reasonably fun/interesting.
the 2 groups perform the same in the first session.
then you pay one group a few bucks for each task performed.
then 2 weeks later, delete the reward and while the first group continues to perform the task the same, the group which received the reward virtually stops to do any task.

conclusion, anything that is fun, becomes a pain when it becomes professional and associated to external rewards.
Those studies are part of self determination theory, which distinguish intrinsic motivation and extrinsinc motivations.

if you like game making, just keep it as a hobby. Or, make a startup and attempt to do your own venture, but if it fails, after that its the end of it.

I'm more familiar with the 'pay a man a million dollars for 3 weeks and he'll think he deserves it'

It's the expectation part that kills.

If you can't find fun in doing the thing itself, take a break. Happened to me too.

And old zen saying: Time spent away from things diminishes your desire for unimportant things, and increases it for important ones. Like the wind fuels a fire but extinguishes a flame.

Take some time off. You'll either come back to it or you won't.

1) Game companies have rediculous requirements. You have to be 20 years old, have shipped 10 AAA titles, and have made a name in indie circles.

Some are. Some are not. When interviewing at companies, looking at the average of the development team is one of many important things to see. If the development team is all 20-somethings and the managers are 30-somethings, politely pass on the job.

If the development team runs the gambit from recent graduate to gray-haired elder, that's a good sign. In part, it can be a sign that the place has gotten over the age discrimination that is rampant in software fields, and in part it can be a good sign that they provide a stable workplace since older developers usually won't put up with crap like 50+ hour work weeks for extended periods.

I've been to two retirement parties in the past few years, and another person is planning his eminent retirement. For the all-youth game studios this is unheard of. At those studios people plan for the next semi-annual layoff, not retirement.

That also leads us to your second point...

2) Game companies are cheap. They pay their developers about $1000 USD/month less than your average business application company.

Supply and demand.

Right now in some places in the US, fast food workers are experimenting with striking to demand $15/hr wages. The flaw is that if the business puts up a sign "Now Hiring for $7.25/hr" people will apply for the job. When there is a large supply of people willing to accept a low wage you generally cannot command a higher salary.

You are right that at the lower levels of employment, game companies do generally pay less than "your average business application company", but only because people are generally willing to take the lower wage. At the more senior levels of employment some of them are bad, but others pay quite generously. For some studios a "senior developer" has experience from two or three titles and is in their early 30s. For some studios a "senior developer" is in their 50s and has experience from hundreds of projects.

I know many game programmers who demand a higher salary. I'm one of them. I've had several interviews where they say they want me. They say they want me badly. Then I tell them my salary requirements, and suddenly they don't want me quite as much. That's fine, they don't need to hire me. When looking for a job I know another company will hire me for that much.

Over the years I've worked with many bosses. One of them had a particular way of negotiating salary. He would explain the little 'game', that he would write down a number, pass it to you face down, and want you to write down a counter offer, much like a used car salesman. Then, just to see what would happen, he would write a lowball bid on the first number. I didn't like the practice, but it was his business to run. Some young college graduates, not knowing better, would take the first offer or fail to negotiate well. When I was hired he passed the offer to me, I chuckled, then wrote down more than double his initial offer. He looked skeptical and asked simply "why?" and my answer was "I'm worth it." We went back and forth a few times, but I knew my value. Ultimately we settled on a value about 180% of his initial lowball, but still within the value I felt I was worth. When we started working on tiny projects with very few people we became able to calculate our individual ROI for the company based on relative contributions to the tiny projects. Mine was one of the highest values as a percentage, but also because I demanded more pay it was also one of the higher values in terms of raw cash. I was making a lot, but I was enabling the company to make a lot more. I could track my daily tasks to roughly a half million dollars per year, with additional indirect contributions to other profit centers. Once our small team discovered we could calculate our individual profit margins both as percentages and raw dollars, some people started asking for bigger bonuses while others discovered a need to redouble their efforts.

Companies don't like to pay money they don't need to. I demand more, and I have a job because I know and I can document the value I produce. I can tell my boss that I'm not working extra hours, and leave when my work day is done. This has caused a bit of strife in one job, but I'm old enough I don't care to put up with overtime -- which is usually a result of poor management. I've got enough demonstrated successes and demonstrated competence that I will require better treatment.

As an example, I was just contacted by a headhunter last week. They offered me what they thought would be a good wage. And it was a good wage if you consider it in isolation, about 2.5x the national average wage. But then I politely turned it down, explained how I have significant expertise and background, and that to move to that expensive area they would need to offer significantly more. I explained that even roughly 3.5x the national average wouldn't be enough to tempt me, although that would be comparable to my current pay in their expensive city. The headhunter was disappointed, but said considering my background (I've published books and got a steady line of profitable successes behind me) he agreed that what I was asking is fair compensation.

The easiest way to fight #2, the low wages given to those breaking in, is simply for people who are breaking in to demand more money. If they cannot fill the job for a low cost, they'll pay more and fill it for a higher cost.

Just like the fast food workers demanding more money, they can get more money when enough people refuse to accept the lowball offers. As long as junior developers are willing to accept minimal compensation, that is their market rate. If the developers refuse to accept a low offer and demand more money, and they are worth it, they can get it.

I began programming games for fun 20 years ago. Those skills turned into a development career for me. I do not have any degree beyond high school diploma. I have six figure salary in a region with a low cost of living and high quality of life. I'd say learning to program games can be very beneficial if you have a talent for it and are motivated to turn it into a career.

[.......]

Companies don't like to pay money they don't need to. I demand more, and I have a job because I know and I can document the value I produce. I can tell my boss that I'm not working extra hours, and leave when my work day is done. This has caused a bit of strife in one job, but I'm old enough I don't care to put up with overtime -- which is usually a result of poor management. I've got enough demonstrated successes and demonstrated competence that I will require better treatment.[...]

Beautiful. very alpha, and respectable. I'm utterly impressed by that half million figure you managed to pull out one year.

Beautiful. very alpha, and respectable. I'm utterly impressed by that half million figure you managed to pull out one year.

Reiterating it is not something one individual makes alone, it is absolutely a team effort.

However our situation has been fairly unique for the ability to calculate. We had products implemented in teams of three, and people constantly shift between the teams, and we have highly visible numbers within the studio for weekly tallies and sales results, and each individual has 20+ projects per year, it is pretty easy to throw values into some formulas to find an approximate per-person weighting.

I like your polished and clean looking games. Could be near as good as the originals were. Seems to me that you were cutting your teeth cloning games designed by others (gameplay /art). I don't think you can effectively compete with a copy cat product that is not at least twice as fun to play. So.. maybe its time to exercise your imagination and create something original. Even if it sucks in implementation and it does not become a commercial success you will be happier because the design is yours alone. for

Cheers - Here is my inspiration game site - oppisite of yours. I starte with a vision... like this trailer “Navigating Plumeria Isles”

I created last weekend, then build from there. Its unconventional but so is the result. Might help it stand out in the hobby crowd. My games are rough around the edges and will make your cpu shriek in pain but the proof of concept is there http://www.3dnld.com/

And no... I have not been picked up by a publishing house... just persevering as a hobby game developer. Even a +1 is enough to spark a thrill enough to continue.

I work with a team of five guys and of all of us only two of us have degrees, two of my fellow programmers and my producer don't have a college degree and I don't think you necessarily need one to succeed as a game programmer. In fact the most experienced and sought after engineer of our team who left us earlier this year had a presentation at Unite , and yet has no degree. he's brilliant by anyones standards . I find the educational foundation useful and overall I would argue that including school projects and released projects I have the most experience on different games in my team but the guys I work with are very capable and highly sought after themselves.

I worked on a lot of hobby projects myself and those got me far more attention then my degrees ever did . In fact on my first day everyone basically knew me as the " Stick-man game guy " . the point being that your work has a potential payoff you just haven't achieved it yet. instead of criticizing your efforts on working on projects could I instead ask if possibly you are marketing yourself incorrectly ?

Where does your portfolio show up ? are you attending networking events in your local area? what kind of online presence do you have ? they may seem like insignificant questions but in our field they are important .

I don't know about turning it into a career since, as many people in this thread seem to say, it all depends. However, I've been doing it for a hobby for years now and it does add a decent amount of pocket change to your bank account. I think you can make a career out of it as long as it is like indie stuff and eventually turn it into a AAA type career.