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Insights Into a Realistic RPG Fighting System

Started by Shinkage Aug 17, 2000 at 12:52 PM 22 replies 4.9k views
Original Post
Shinkage
Shinkage
Before I start, I would request that everybody who intends to come in with a comment along the lines of "We should entirely remove combat from being the focus of games" just not bother. I find combat in games quite enjoyable. My thought, however, is that perhaps if some of this were taken into account it would make combat a much more risky affair, with much graver concequences. That being said, the point of this post is that I think combat would be a lot more enjoyable, and possibly have an additional wow factor, if it were made somehow much more realistic. These thoughts were really spurred by another posting in the General and Game Programming Discussion board. These are some thoughts drawn from my personal experience with armed and unarmed combat. I have never seen the differences among weapons and advantages of individual weapons modeled anywhere near accurately. For instance, consider two people in a battle starting at distance, one armed with a yari (a spear, generally about a dozen feet in length) and the other with a long dagger. At first it might seem like the person with the spear has the obvious advantage, being at distance and all, but what if I tell you that a dagger used properly can be a very effective weapon against a spear? This battle could generally go three possible ways, all things being equal, depending on the relative skills of the combatants: Skilled dagger, unskilled spear--the person with the dagger will EASILY be able to quickly and efficiently close distance, at which point the person with the spear will no longer stand a snowball''s chance in hell. Unskilled dagger, skilled spear--the person with the spear will know how to keep proper distance and will eventually catch the more agile dagger wielder. Roughly equal skill--the fight will turn into a complex distance game, the person with the dagger constantly closing, and the person with the spear constantly opening--possibly a VERY long fight. Place the person with the dagger agains someone wielding, say, a staff, and the situation changes drastically. My point being that every weapon has its peculiar strengths, weaknesses, and techniques against every other possible weapon. Sometimes one weapon will be obviously inferior (as is a bastard sword to a katana), but most of the time any weapon can be equally deadly. It is not about the "power" of your weapon, but how you use it that will 99 times out of 100 determine who wins the fight. Another often overlooked aspect of combat is distance. Ask any experienced swordsman and they will tell you that maintaing proper distance is THE most crucial aspect to fighting successfully. Opening distance, closing distance, maintaining distance--these are all very central concepts to armed combat. Being able to do these things skillfully is as difficult as it is important. I said I was going to talk about unarmed combat, so I''m going to make this simple. Against an armed opponent it''s simply not done by itself. It''s just another thing on the list of ways to get real dead real fast. In conjunction with weapons, though, it can be an immensely useful skill. Your sword isn''t always going to be the most handy thing to hit an opening that you see with. A well placed kick, if it doesn''t cripple your opponent outright, will generally induce a gaping wide opening in their defense for a swift cut. Finally, in combat no enemy is ever harmless. Ever. That little 3'' goblin with a knife can kill you just as dead than that 20'' gigas with a giant magical longsword +5. Trying to swing through foes--any foes--with reckless abandon will get you killed. I repeat, it WILL get you killed. So, if anybody managed to make it all the way through this post, I''d like to hear any thoughts as to how practically this could be applied to a game. And for that matter, what it would add to or remove from the game if it were.
Buster
Buster
I would just throw the spear at the dagger boy from a distance of about 40-50 yards.

Poof. Dead dagger boy.
Wavinator
Wavinator
Let''s take it for granted that you''re able to create a system that''s not so realistic that it''s difficult to understand.

You gain the appreciation of folks like me who are hardcore. I want to see height advantage, skill disparity, close quarters vs. long range, body hit area, etc. etc. I also want to see better hit point to weapon''s damage ratios (no more taking 9 arrows to the head just ''cause you''ve got 7000 HP).

As a drawback, you''d lose the superhero crowd. They''d get ticked because their character wouldn''t be Arnold the Terminator when facing down a room full of baddies. So you''d gain the diehards in exchange for the less hardcore, if that''s acceptable.

I''d be up for a discussion on rules systems, by the way. I''m looking for a laundry list that would make combat more interesting + how it''d work.

BTW, as you can tell I find combat enjoyable. I just don''t like that being my only option, especially in a RPG.



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Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
Wavinator
Wavinator
quote:
Original post by Buster

I would just throw the spear at the dagger boy from a distance of about 40-50 yards.

Poof. Dead dagger boy.


Not necessarily. What if spearboy throws and misses? Once spearboy throws, and daggerboy moves out of the way (given 40-50 yards is a LONG flight time), spearboy''ll be running back the way he came.

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Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
Shinkage
Shinkage
Admittedly, combat shouldn''t be the only option in an RPG. It is, however, the one that the broadest range of people seem to find the most enjoyable.

The question that remains for me before I''d start putting any specific rules down is whether the system should by VERY realistic, or just FAIRLY realistic. The difference, as I see it, would basically come down to whether most characters could take a good hit from a weapon and keep on fighting, much less living.

As for the spear example, well, if you''ve ever tried to throw a 12'' spear, you''ll know it''s not very easy That weapon is not for throwing. Not to mention that if you saw it coming it''d be pretty easy to dodge at all but a very specific range.
Paul Cunningham
Paul Cunningham
I would have thought that the most important aspect of combat was timing myself. Are you talking about a combat system that will be using body location hits, hit points or what?

I always look for realism to add elements to combat systems that i work on but its usually just for adding fun. I never use realism as a template either.

Whether or not some gets killed by a stike in combat would (i believe) come down to 2 main factors: luck and skill. It also comes down to the weapon used. A 3 inch knife would have to be used in the right places to land an instant kill whereas a spear would be relying more on strength to create an instant kill (depending on how sharp it is) in my opinion.

This is the thing, if you want realism then you have to take into account everything about every different weapon. Remeber that there isn''t so many different weapons becuase they are all used the same way.

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!
Shinkage
Shinkage
First off, I've got to say that in real fighting similar weapons are not used the same way. The difference between handling a sabre and a rapier can be rather astounding. A katana and a longsword (aside from the fact that a katana is generally two-handed and a longsword one) are vastly different. The only similar weapons are those of a class in which the idea is not so much skill, as persistence (basically all very large swords as I see it--I'm no fan of the broadsword).

Timing is a critical factor in fighting, but in my opinion, as well as those I've trained with, not as much so as distance.

I'll give you that a 3 inch knife would be difficult to kill someone with (need to go for the medulla, temple, throat, or some other weak spot), but you're a lucky man if you get hit by any weapon with a significant size and live to tell about it. Discounting arm or leg hits, which are still immensely crippling (not just from loss of use of that appendage, but from pain, shock, and loss of blood). Not to mention that it's real hard to remain focused on the combat right after being cut open. They are not quite as deadly as bladed weapons, but still a good shot with a club or staff can easily kill a person.

Aah, forgot to mention... I can't see how a realistic fighting system could possibly be based off of hit points, so yes, I would imagine it would be location based. As a matter of fact, I could see to critical factors in determining damage--location and severity.

Edited by - Shinkage on August 17, 2000 9:13:21 PM
Wavinator
Wavinator
A good point here is playability. If a realistic weapon takes me out with one hit, and I''m in a combat heavy game where I''m constantly encountering them, then you''ve got a save and restore (or savepoint, as others here believe) nightmare! (Imagine a realistic FPS sim of the Normandy Beach landing...)

Now, if we''re talking deathmatch or a fighting game, then it''s no problem because heavy damage becomes the equivalent of a stun attack with coup de grace. You''re immobilized, and then you die.

But if we''re talking RPG, or FPS, then I don''t think it''s going to work as well.

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Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
Paul Cunningham
Paul Cunningham
A lot of it comes down to training too. You could give me a chainsaw and there would be people out there who would still kill me with one arm tied behind their back. But at course this sort of training is an entire life.

This makes me think of a game called International Karate where if you hit someone they went down. Then that was round one. But what your talking about is a hit someone and they die. So what would the players options be in combat? Wouldn''t every fight be the same?

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!
Shinkage
Shinkage
I guess I wasn''t specific about this, but most of what I said only applies to armed combat. And this is a game--they don''t HAVE to die, the game should just acknowledge that a single hit can be extremely crippling.

A chainsaw... now there''s a though... give me a rapier (which I should mention is probably the most effective weapon I have ever used) any day
Tracy
Tracy
I used to be into the pen and paper RPG''s. Ever hear of Chivalry and Sorcery? It was a very plot oriented type RPG and went into alot of detail on feudal society and alot of other non-combat type things. But I always thought it had the best combat system (and magic system). Combat involved so many things, character class (which indicated how much weapons training), confirmed or non-confirmed skill with a particular weapon, attacker and defenders weight and strength (and agility), type of weapon (slashing, thrusting, crushing), type of armor. Critical hits were part of the system (so it was good for fighter types to be able to fight ambidexterously, if you could only use a sword right handed that arm might be wounded, not to mention an outright fatal critical hit). Some classes had cool special attacks too (knights had what was called the "crushing blow" and another move called "desperate defense"). I always thought if a real programmer (meaning not me) wanted to create a realistic and cool combat system for a fantasy RPG they should study the combat rules for that game. Or magical combat for that matter. How about comic book superhero combat systems? Villians and Vigilantes was pretty good.

"A man can't just sit around." 'Lawn Chair' Larry Walters (1982)
"A man can't just sit around." 'Lawn Chair' Larry Walters (1982)
Paul Cunningham
Paul Cunningham
So the game will just acknowledge that they''ve been critically hit. Will this information be relyed to the player?

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!
Chiroptera
Chiroptera
Well, the computer is highly suited for this sort of thing. The reason you don''t (often) see huge realistic charts in Pen and Paper games is because it''s a pain. But a computer can handle all of that, which is why I''m amazed combat systems aren''t more complex than they are. As an extension to this, you shouldn''t make the player have to worry too much about it. For instance, having to perform three or four clicking actions every time you want to attack isn''t fun. But then, leaving in the choice if they do want to do something specific IS fun.
Funkymunky
Funkymunky
We have RPGs, we have flight simulators, we have fighting games, we have adventures.

What I dream of is someday making a game that melds a few of these genres to make an incredible RPG.

Imagine an RPG that ran like most of the RPGs you have played...but when in came to combat, it switched into a different mode entirely? Think Final Fantasy meets Tekken.
MadKeithV
MadKeithV
Well I can make a few points from this discussion:

  1. Skill is more important than the weapon.
    So if skill''s more important, do you mean character skill, or player skill, when you implement it in your game? I think for an RPG it should be character skill, or you''re left with a combat simulator.
  2. Skill depends on the kind of weapon.
    Skill in a sword is obviously not skill with a net (hey, a net is a weapon too), so skills should be differentiated enough to make a difference.
  3. Two of the most important things in weapons and their skill is how to make use of range and how to make use of mobility.
    Model these two, and you''ll have a pretty good system. However, neither of these can be implemented without relying too much on player skill instead of character skill. You can''t have your character moving around of its own accord in a RPG, or can you?
  4. Death, incapacitation or serious injury occur frequently in realistic combat, is this a bad thing?
    Not necessarily. A combat oriented character has a REAL skill. Any idiot rogue with a dagger might claim a big kill in "ordinary" combat games, but in this one, saying you have five kills to your name is actually a real feat. Combat becomes important and significant. Always a good thing!



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Knarkles
Knarkles
What I would like to see is a realistic swordfighting game. It could even be part of an action-oriented RPG. I think Playstation had something like this, where you could die from a single stroke. Was it Bushido Blade or sthg. like that? I don''t have a PSX, so I haven''t played it.

-Jussi
DungeonMaster
DungeonMaster
What about heroic fights : you dont know why they attacked you, but suddenly you find yourself hardpressed. To gain a little freedom you jump over the bench and throw the table in their feet. This allow you to gain the first step of the stairs. They rush at you to prevent your escape. You can only defend yourself while backing up the stairs. When you reach the top, you throw your cape over their swords and heads and use the confusion to jump and grab the candle holder, swing over the room to the entrance of the tavern and escape...

How could you implement this in a game ?

"Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius there was an age undreamed of..."
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Knarkles
Knarkles
quote:
What about heroic fights : you dont know why they attacked you, but suddenly you find yourself hardpressed. To gain a little freedom you jump over the bench and throw the table in their feet. This allow you to gain the first step of the stairs. They rush at you to prevent your escape. You can only defend yourself while backing up the stairs. When you reach the top, you throw your cape over their swords and heads and use the confusion to jump and grab the candle holder, swing over the room to the entrance of the tavern and escape...

How could you implement this in a game ?


It''s simple: just implement a perfect physics simulation.

-Jussi
Anonymous Poster.
Anonymous Poster.
---->It''s simple: just implement a perfect physics simulation.<----

Jeez, why didn''t i think of that? 8P
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Ingenu
Ingenu
I have the same problem as MAdKeithV number 1 !
When to test the player, and when to test the character ?

The player want some conrol of the action, but the character have some proficinecies the player certainly dont have

When you play Rayman2 or Tomb Raider the players skills are tested all along the way, while playing FF don''t require any skill (well it only require that you don''t play as an idiot).

What is the good decision to your game ?
Is there another way to go ?

comments ?

-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-
-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

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