What the hell is happening to Holland?

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Original post by CodeCorner I just read the Herald newspaper here and it tells me that this Dutch film director was shot and nearly beheaded (WTF!) with a knife in broad daylight in Amsterdam by a Moroccan/Islamic militant. There is a picture of him lying dead with a knife planted in his chest, supposedly with some Arab message pinned to it. After the politician being killed a year ago, wasn't there another Moroccan who shot his teacher through the head in class because he didn't like him? Beheadings/throat cutting in Iraq, we know about. But Holland? What kind of a weird half Muslim country is the Netherlands becoming? Maybe the US isn't so bad after all.

The director presented some anti-fundamentalist-Islam notions in film. So he was murdered. Seems pretty typical.

Ummm.... there are a lot of muslims in Europe, what with us being the buffer between the US and the Middle East. It's also why we tend to side with the Palistinians on the whole Israel thing.

But of course, religious extremists from the US don't commit atrocities against those who may not agree with them.

EDIT: Link is just an early one from google. Plenty more out there...

The politician was killed two years ago, by a Dutch guy who had no Islamic connections. The bit about the guy shooting is teacher is true, yes.

It's the failure of the tolerant multi-cultural society that Holland wanted, I guess. Be prepared for two more politicians, a Dutch man with blonde hair and an ex-muslim woman, being shot for their anti-Islamic views in the next two years.

indeed the politician wasnt killed by an islamitic extremist but by an animal rights activist.

but yeah we do seem to get a lot of this shit lately. it almost seems like a fucking fashion trend.

personally i think immigration isnt that good a thing if it goes on uncontrollably. there is just no room here to shelter the whole world.

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Original post by Boris Karloff The politician was killed two years ago, by a Dutch guy who had no Islamic connections. The bit about the guy shooting is teacher is true, yes. It's the failure of the tolerant multi-cultural society that Holland wanted, I guess.

Uhm, no. That's the *price* of a multi-cultural society: there will always be fruitcakes, loons and arseholes in *every* culture. There are only two kinds of people in the world: good people and bad people. Everything else is marketing.

Islamic religions have no monopoly on nasty people, as the events in Abu Ghraib proved. And I seem to recall that the current war in Iraq has killed over one hundred thousand civilians. The attacks on the US in 2001, on the other hand, killed a "mere" 3000 or so.

Do two wrongs make a right now? Is this the future of mankind? Maybe things have changed and revenge -- an eye for an eye -- has become socially, morally and ethically acceptable. If it has, I wasn't aware of this and I apologise for wasting your time.

--
Sean Timarco Baggaley

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Original post by stimarco Uhm, no. That's the *price* of a multi-cultural society: there will always be fruitcakes, loons and arseholes in *every* culture. There are only two kinds of people in the world: good people and bad people. Everything else is marketing.

Well said. The only thing really wrong with Holland is that we are too tolerant to loonies. We know who they are but we tend to let then run around and just watch them. Untill they kill/maim/whatever and then we all go like "Why didn't anyone do anything?", "The bullet came from the left", "And good riddance", "Politics is dead", "Away with immigrants" and more such nonsense.

PS, here's the thread about the film maker

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Original post by CodeCorner I just read the Herald newspaper here and it tells me that this Dutch film director was shot and nearly beheaded (WTF!) with a knife in broad daylight in Amsterdam by a Moroccan/Islamic militant. There is a picture of him lying dead with a knife planted in his chest, supposedly with some Arab message pinned to it. After the politician being killed a year ago, wasn't there another Moroccan who shot his teacher through the head in class because he didn't like him?

He was killed two years ago, one week before the election. Still he managed to get one sixth of the votes?!? The government that was formed afterward included his party and it was the shortest government we ever had (only 87 days). Also for the first time in dutch parliamentary history the expressions "fuck you" and "dikke lul" (means fat dick but is used similar to the word asshole) were recorded. Effectively with reelection and long coalition negotiations the Netherlands wasn't being governed for a whole year. The government we now have is the second worse ever (the one of 87 days was the worse).
On a side not, there is a television program (format copied from the bbc) where they elect the greatest dutchman ever. There is a big change that the politician that was shot will win....

I don't recall that the one who shot the teacher was a marrocan, all i remember is that he was from a family that was involved in drug related crimes. The silly thing here is that the school where this happened is called the terra-college, where terra is pronounced in the same way as Bush pronounces terror.

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Beheadings/throat cutting in Iraq, we know about. But Holland? What kind of a weird half Muslim country is the Netherlands becoming?

About 8 percent of the dutch population is muslim now. In the sixties and seventies lots of immigrants came from Turkey and Maroc. They were supposed to stay for a few years and then return. Instead they stayed and started families. Their offspring is now dangling between two cultures, the traditional one of their parents and the modern dutch one. They are causing some problems in the mayor cities, partly because they live in those areas that start to resemble ghettos and also they lack proper education (drop out of schools). Some of them became radical muslims, but the majority is just annoying.

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Maybe the US isn't so bad after all.

It's the other ways around. The Netherlands ain't cool anymore. I used to enjoy visiting the US, but was always glad that I could return home. After my last few visits I didn't have that feeling anymore. There is an anti-intellectual atmosphere in which the peasants are very vocal in expressing their "gut feeling" and just waiting for the next populist leader to rise. This is what worries me most, this collective madness. Already extreme right wing nationalist turn this killed director into their martyr.

In short, the Netherlands sucks pretty bad right now (also the number of people leaving the country is rising rapidly, and if i just knew where to go i would have be gone myself.....)

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Original post by stimarco Uhm, no. That's the *price* of a multi-cultural society: there will always be fruitcakes, loons and arseholes in *every* culture. There are only two kinds of people in the world: good people and bad people. Everything else is marketing.

Not the point I was trying to make. The multi-cultural society was about multiple cultures living together. The failure is that, after several years, hate and suspicion between cultures in this society are greater than before. I call that a failure. This recent killing is just one of the results.

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Original post by stimarco Well said. The only thing really wrong with Holland is that we are too tolerant to loonies.

Really? So you wouldn't call the fact that suspicions and hatred between cultures in Holland is ever growing wrong? Remarkable.

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Original post by smilydon The government that was formed afterward included his party and it was the shortest government we ever had (only 87 days).

Lies and spin from the opposition, and everyone fell for it. There have been governments before the war that were even shorter.

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Original post by smilydon The government we now have is the second worse ever (the one of 87 days was the worse).

So, you wouldn't say that the NSB government during the war was worse? Appaling.

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Original post by Boris Karloff Lies and spin from the opposition, and everyone fell for it. There have been governments before the war that were even shorter.

No this was my mistake, there were one normal and one exceptional (the first)shorter governments.

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So, you wouldn't say that the NSB government during the war was worse? Appaling.

You shouldn't ask a question, imagine an answer and then be judgemental about the hypothetical answer. My answer to you question would be Which one?

But this is getting off topic, the OP observed a trend and i just illustrated that his observation was correct in my previous post.

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Original post by Boris Karloff Quote: Original post by stimarco Sander Well said. The only thing really wrong with Holland is that we are too tolerant to loonies. Really? So you wouldn't call the fact that suspicions and hatred between cultures in Holland is ever growing wrong? Remarkable.

Why is the hatred and suspicion growing? Because all the groups think that all the loonies come from the other group than their own.

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Original post by smilydon No this was my mistake, there were one normal and one exceptional (the first)shorter governments.

I don't know what that means.

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You shouldn't ask a question, imagine an answer and then be judgemental about the hypothetical answer. My answer to you question would be Which one?

I have no idea what that means, either. And I don't see anything pertaining which government was the worst government ever.

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Original post by Sander Quote: Original post by Boris Karloff Quote: Original post by stimarco Sander Well said. The only thing really wrong with Holland is that we are too tolerant to loonies. Really? So you wouldn't call the fact that suspicions and hatred between cultures in Holland is ever growing wrong? Remarkable. Why is the hatred and suspicion growing? Because all the groups think that all the loonies come from the other group than their own.

So... you wouldn't call that *wrong*?

*puzzled*

But anyway, your point exactly illustrates why the MC-society has failed: Nobody is able to think beyond their own group. That was something that wasn't supposed to happen in the multi-cultural society. Ergo, the multi-cultural society has failed.

I myself have also seen the situation in the Netherlands get worse every year. Apart from the things you have mentioned, we are getting more and more killings due to 'zinloos geweld' (needless violence). More and more people are getting beat up, often to death as a result of saying something small (example being to tell someone you can't smoke here).

I myself think that the Netherlands are not tolerant at this moment. It is more apathy. The government is afraid to act, punishments for crimes are to low. We are not communicating with the non-dutch, we are ignoring them, and I'm afraid the situation will get much worse before it finally gets better (I'm still hoping at least that it does get better).

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Original post by rick_appleton I myself have also seen the situation in the Netherlands get worse every year. Apart from the things you have mentioned, we are getting more and more killings due to 'zinloos geweld' (needless violence). More and more people are getting beat up, often to death as a result of saying something small (example being to tell someone you can't smoke here).

I don't believe in that increase of violence. As a matter of fact, crime rates in Amsterdam are going down the last couple of years.
I live only 50 meters from crime scene, in a very mixed (muslims, asians, dutch, you name it) neighbourhood, and I never felt unsafe.
Sure there are problems, and yes I was shocked by what had happened, but I just don't believe it's getting worse when it comes to these acts of violence.

Question yourself, there was a silent march the same day as he was murdered, with 18000-20000 people. normally it took some days to arrange this.... looks like we are getting very good at organising these marches..... doesnt that say enough?

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Original post by Red Falcon Question yourself, there was a silent march the same day as he was murdered, with 18000-20000 people. normally it took some days to arrange this.... looks like we are getting very good at organising these marches..... doesnt that say enough?

Actually, it was a very loud march, which made it just that more impressive.

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Original post by WanMaster Quote: Original post by rick_appleton I myself have also seen the situation in the Netherlands get worse every year. Apart from the things you have mentioned, we are getting more and more killings due to 'zinloos geweld' (needless violence). More and more people are getting beat up, often to death as a result of saying something small (example being to tell someone you can't smoke here). I don't believe in that increase of violence. As a matter of fact, crime rates in Amsterdam are going down the last couple of years. I live only 50 meters from crime scene, in a very mixed (muslims, asians, dutch, you name it) neighbourhood, and I never felt unsafe. Sure there are problems, and yes I was shocked by what had happened, but I just don't believe it's getting worse when it comes to these acts of violence.

Well, I can agree with you that crime is lower, I have no experience with that. But how many people got beaten to death 5 years ago? I haven't heard of any. Now it seems as if every few months you hear about another case.

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Original post by Red Falcon Question yourself, there was a silent march the same day as he was murdered, with 18000-20000 people. normally it took some days to arrange this.... looks like we are getting very good at organising these marches..... doesnt that say enough?

no that says shit.

regardless, it seems to me integration just isnt working at the speed it has been going. not that i think such a shooting is a reason to flip out: shit happens. im more concerned with simple day to day things i see. what i think is a good indicator: when was the last time you saw a native dating a (muslim)immigrant?

when people immigrate in large numbers they usually stick with their own kind, forming ghettos, and unknowlingly settling themselves in a permanent lower social economic position with all bullshit it brings along.

imho immigration and a multicultural society will only work smoothly if people dont come in faster than they get integrated into the existing society, but once you get in a us vs them situation like we are now, youre way too late and cultural barriers like they have established themselves now could take decades to wear down.

there should have been a coordinated effort from the start to spread immigrats over the country, and limit the rate at which immigrants come in, to avoid ghetto formation and force integration. right now im inclined to say: stop letting people in until the integration problems we have now are dissolved. unless there is some other magic solution. id love to see it but i doubt it exists.

i have nothing against immigrants, but the way we have dealt with them (ie not) was just naive, and i think its better to fix things now than later, for both immigrants as natives.

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Original post by Eelco Quote: Original post by Red Falcon Question yourself, there was a silent march the same day as he was murdered, with 18000-20000 people. normally it took some days to arrange this.... looks like we are getting very good at organising these marches..... doesnt that say enough? no that says shit. regardless, it seems to me integration just isnt working at the speed it has been going. not that i think such a shooting is a reason to flip out: shit happens. im more concerned with simple day to day things i see. what i think is a good indicator: when was the last time you saw a native dating a (muslim)immigrant? when people immigrate in large numbers they usually stick with their own kind, forming ghettos, and unknowlingly settling themselves in a permanent lower social economic position with all bullshit it brings along. imho immigration and a multicultural society will only work smoothly if people dont come in faster than they get integrated into the existing society, but once you get in a us vs them situation like we are now, youre way too late and cultural barriers like they have established themselves now could take decades to wear down. there should have been a coordinated effort from the start to spread immigrats over the country, and limit the rate at which immigrants come in, to avoid ghetto formation and force integration. right now im inclined to say: stop letting people in until the integration problems we have now are dissolved. unless there is some other magic solution. id love to see it but i doubt it exists. i have nothing against immigrants, but the way we have dealt with them (ie not) was just naive, and i think its better to fix things now than later, for both immigrants as natives.

I agree with you that the integration of certain groups of people hasn't been perfect, to say the least.
However I don't see a direct link to what has happened a few days ago. That was just a terrorist assault by fundamentalist.
Better integration of minorities would be good for society in general, but will never prevent things like this from happening. That calls for better intelligence by the secret service or police, and using that information to actually do something about it. I think it is in this area, where we could learn something from the Americans (although in my opinion, they have gone a bit to far with the patriot act and all).