What's not to like about playing a spirit?

there are two reasons i can think of:
1)this type of energy is hard to relate to. it doesnt fall in love, doesnt get mad, it cannot be shy...and well it's basicly missing all the feelings we relate to.
2)people think that the idea is very innovative and think that it is enough to have a good idea and dont concentrate too much on other espects of the game.

Make the game first person and the lightness might not matter so much. I mean, when you're playing Quake, you really only get to see your hands and the gun - so what you look like might not matter so much. As an energy being, you should be able to fly and pass through walls and such - that might be interesting in first person.

I think it's about not being able to relate. It's hard to identify with the ethereal - lightness, insubstantiality, intangible, delicate - as physical beings we can't really bring those kinds of non-physical qualities with us to a game. We don't know those things from being them, we can only imagine it and perhaps putting that much imagination into a game is too much effort for too many people. To me those kinds of qualities seem more contemplative and there aren't a lot of comtemplative games - chess, go, the glass bead game [smile].

It's like writing about heaven and hell, the writing about hell is always so much better. It's difficult for flawed beings to relate to perfect ones.

How about a game where you are a demon intent on possessing people - green barf and all - if you make it over the top and graphic - head twists, crucifix ..., eerie glossolalia - plus a few more original twists not taken from the movie - you could create such an uproar in the media that you'll sell a million copies! [grin]

The last game I encountered of this sort was one in which you played a baby-faced cherubic angel, and had to possess different opponents in order to advance through the game. IIRC, the main downfall of the game was a wonky user interface.

I guess Black & White might be consider as another such game, but that might be stretching it. Neverwinter Nights also had such a system for DMs to possess different creatures in the game, but this was clunky with the radial menus.

Personally, if the game interface was fluid, I wouldn't have a problem (moral, religious, or otherwise) with the concept of possession/joining of in-game characters.

Casper anyone ?

Tbh, Messiah, (the game you're reffering to) had more problems than just the wonky user interface.. Learning curve, difficulty, certain points where some posessions were essential added to its downfall. I don't think the lack of success that the game had was related to the spirit thingy, though.

Generally, part of the gameplay of being a ghost is that you the ghost don't have much direct influence of your environs. Players on the other hand feel helpless when they percieve that they can't "do anything".

Note the difference in success between God Games [players are in-substantial, but have direct influence] and Ghost Games...

I hear Geist (for GameCube) has a spectral element that's very nice. I can't say anything from experience, though.

I agree with forgottensoul that the intangibility of the character inhibits empathy. Maybe open the game with a cutscene about how you were a great hero of an ancient race, who sacrificed himself and was imprisoned in the artifact a billion years ago in order to save his people. They're long dead and forgotten, but you're still suffering on their behalf. Then, when your ruins are excavated and the artifact is subjected to psionic scans, you are imbued with crazy psi powers and locomotion, so you can once again set out and do good and blah blah blah. Or something like that.

If they can think of themselves as a person in spirit form, rather than a spirit pretending to be a character, it might be easier.

I'd hit that. There just hasn't been many good ones.

It's gimmicky. The possessing different characters thing isn't really all that innovative; it's just like switching from one game to another. The inhibiting empathy part can be important when your character has no history. The immortality part can hinder the tension.

I can only think of Geist, Messiah and Omikron, The Nomad Soul when thinking of previous "possession" orientated games, although I've played neither of those. From what I've read though, the problems with those games were related to other issues (such as bugs, bad level design, or just lack of marketing maybe?) rather than the initial concept.

I'd say that there is an issue about the loss of ability to relate to the spirit in those games. In most third-person action games, there's a well defined protagonist that the player can relate to, and the marketing people can slap on the cover of the box. It's a bit harder to relate to a disembodied spirit.

If you give the spirit a personality of its own, or some kind of appearance (even if it's only in the minds of the possessed), then that might help. Your game also had the advantage that it's not a third-person action game, but some kind of RPG/strategy hybrid (if I remember correctly), so you can emphasis a different aspect of the game. From your recent questions I don't think you are going for "quick" possessions, where you only possess a character for a short period of time, so the personality of the host body is important too.

So I guess it depends on how integral the possession is to the gameplay of your final game. Given there's so much other stuff in there already I'm not sure how important the spirit possession will be to the final presentation of the game (you've got a lot more game you can advertise [smile]).

Ghosts are essentially about the visual (seeing and being seen), which is why they rock in films, and about communicating as opposed to acting, which is why they do well in books. Games are essentially about physical interaction, so it's no wonder playing ghosts does not compete. Rooting the ghost in the physical world through tricks like possession is cheating.

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Ghosts are essentially about the visual (seeing and being seen), which is why they rock in films, and about communicating as opposed to acting, which is why they do well in books. Games are essentially about physical interaction, so it's no wonder playing ghosts does not compete. Rooting the ghost in the physical world through tricks like possession is cheating.

Traditional Spirits aren't generally about being seen, Hollywood often does that to illicit more of a response from viewers, and of course to make box-office cash. The Blair Which Project, or that one film where they see deaths plan for them (the name eludes me) is probably more true to how ghosts really would behave than other films. Communication through dreams, Hallucinations, subtle things like sounds, a flicker of something just out of sight, are more common things. They could however also use Telekenesis, move objects, hurt people physically, or even throw things around, much like in Poltergest. ;D

Personally, i would be perfectly happy with a ball of light with transparent fillaments around it, floating around in 3rd person, using 2 analog joysticks to steer up and around. I'd have my bag of ghost tricks or just fly into people and try to "possess" them. Or i could sit outside and shut all the doors, making the walls bleed to freak them out. Hell thats always fun. ;D

How would a spirit level-up? I'd guess spirit games aren't that popular because it'd be tough to design some feeling of progression of your character.

i think almost any idea can be made into a great game or a pice of crud, look at katamari, if you went to a developer with rolling a sticky ball around to pick up junk it proabaly wouldnt sound too good.

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Original post by kseh How would a spirit level-up? I'd guess spirit games aren't that popular because it'd be tough to design some feeling of progression of your character.

Is there any reason why a spirit couldn't level like any other character, developing abilities that change gameplay?

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Original post by Kaze i think almost any idea can be made into a great game or a pice of crud, look at katamari, if you went to a developer with rolling a sticky ball around to pick up junk it proabaly wouldnt sound too good.

You're right that it all comes down to execution, ultimately. And there is limited value in posting an idea if it's really, really contrary to the norm. [smile] (I wonder how we here would have received someone posting about katamari?)

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Original post by Gyrthok Personally, i would be perfectly happy with a ball of light with transparent fillaments around it, floating around in 3rd person, using 2 analog joysticks to steer up and around. I'd have my bag of ghost tricks or just fly into people and try to "possess" them. Or i could sit outside and shut all the doors, making the walls bleed to freak them out. Hell thats always fun. ;D

This sounds like it would really work for a hardcore poltergeist game. [smile] (eh, not sure for a sci-fi RPG/strategy game, but what the heck, I'm already out on a limb...)

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Original post by Trapper Zoid I'd say that there is an issue about the loss of ability to relate to the spirit in those games. In most third-person action games, there's a well defined protagonist that the player can relate to, and the marketing people can slap on the cover of the box.

Just as an aside, I use this as the first and best clue for me to avoid the game. JC Dention, Sam Fisher, etc., etc. all tell me that the game is gonna be more about them than me. But good point.

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From your recent questions I don't think you are going for "quick" possessions, where you only possess a character for a short period of time, so the personality of the host body is important too.

Yes, it's starting to look like there should be some sort of "virtual pet" (er, for lack of a better word) gameplay with interacting with the host. The host I think still gives you a form to relate to (a face, as it were).

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So I guess it depends on how integral the possession is to the gameplay of your final game. Given there's so much other stuff in there already I'm not sure how important the spirit possession will be to the final presentation of the game (you've got a lot more game you can advertise [smile]).

Well, FWIW, although I've been all over the map in recent posts, the core idea I've been working with involves fallen gods, a fantastical sci-fi future, and casting the player as some force that can survive time and change the future. Months ago I tried out the idea of quantum AI and downloadable souls, but I didn't like how impersonal the idea was. My hope here is that this idea *MIGHT* resonate a bit more, especially because it could be used to explain events in history (from a sort of ghost Illuminati angle).

Wavinator:

Im curious, as I have been vaugly following most of your threads for the past year or so... do you intend this as a general commentary on gameplay mechanics and possibilities, or are you planning on adding this to your game? As I can recall your game was something of a space action rts hybrid, but I could be mistaken I suppose? If you are indeed planning on adding that to your previous endevors design document, I would be most concerned with how exactly it would fit in. This is an already done thing on a variety of games, as many people mentioned the failures were not with the subject matter, but the implementation thereof. I remember reading about this zombie game where you are a hand, and you take over people to achieve your goals. No reason that could not be an extreemly successfull game. But IMHO if you are still working on that space RTS/RPG/ACTION game, and you were intending this to be a part of it, playing as a possessive item, or cellestialler spirit will probably cause problems with your whole planatary action form of the game I would immagine. Then again, im not sure anymore your seriousness on that original design, or have you dismissed it entirely?

Richard

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Original post by LessBread As an energy being, you should be able to fly and pass through walls and such - that might be interesting in first person.

Yes, there are many implications here, such as being able to spy on others or gain access to areas you'd normally not be able to reach. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about this. Without some limit, it could be very unbalancing. It also places ENORMOUS pressure on the game to render vignettes for all the places you should be able to enter. For these reasons, I'm strongly leaning toward nixing any kind of ethereal travel-- you either snap to hosts, or (maybe) some rare and special item that you're bound to (that could wait around for another host much like the Sauron's ring at the beginning of LOTR).

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I think it's about not being able to relate. It's hard to identify with the ethereal - lightness, insubstantiality, intangible, delicate - as physical beings we can't really bring those kinds of non-physical qualities with us to a game.

Funny, though. I think you have a point about the non-physical, but part of playing a character is getting to do things you'd never be able to do (like being superman, or warping to different planets).

Would it be any easier to relate if you were somehow a fusion of person and ghost? That is, you have (via story) a basis for relating to once being a character, and before finding a host you're simply a glowing character?

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It's like writing about heaven and hell, the writing about hell is always so much better. It's difficult for flawed beings to relate to perfect ones.

Does this still apply if you have needs as a ghost, or resources, or limits?

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How about a game where you are a demon intent on possessing people - green barf and all - if you make it over the top and graphic - head twists, crucifix ..., eerie glossolalia - plus a few more original twists not taken from the movie - you could create such an uproar in the media that you'll sell a million copies! [grin]

[lol] I'll let you make that one! Reminds me of the 1930s, where every playwright worth his salt was trying to get the Catholic Church to ban his play-- just so that attendance would triple!

Another spirit like game I played b4 is Relic, its in Japanese, so i have no idea what its talking about, its a beautiful 2d game tho. You go around possessing creatures and robots, if your spirit level up, the creature you possesses also become stronger, animals hates humans, so if you possess one of them, the other faction will be hostile towards you, attacking your allie also causes hostility.

Another not so spirit like game is Phantom Brave and Makai Kingdom, the basic idea is this, the main character can confine phantoms (ghost like characters) to an object and allow them to exist in this world for a brief period, different ghosts has different duration. The ghosts inherit the attributes of the objects they're confined in, like if one is confined to a rock, he will have high defense bonus, but lowered speed penalty. The game have many other factors to consider during confinement, so its pretty tiring (for people like me) and frustrating, Im thanksful the game didnt go one step further in complicating the gameplay.

There's a reason why big games like Imperium Galactica doesnt appeal to many players, it has too many things to consider, and plan while playing, somehow I think it became more like a chore playing games like this. For me, I think games're supposed to be fun and relaxing, not to further stressing your already tired mind. Better leave the thinking and calculating to work and study. But I must admit Im not a very hardcore player. Games that have straight forward gimmicks will appeal to me more than overly deep concepts.

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Original post by PaulCesar Wavinator: Im curious, as I have been vaugly following most of your threads for the past year or so... do you intend this as a general commentary on gameplay mechanics and possibilities, or are you planning on adding this to your game?

Thanks for asking, and a well deserved question given that I've been posting so many elliptical topics of late.

Here is my goal: I'd like to offer a fusion between RPG and empire game that lets you play a series of connected characters in a fantastical, continuously changing future. Most of the gameplay should focus on thriving in this future, making changes, and weathering or warding off great events. I'd like the specific gameplay to involve lots of character interaction, vehicle use, and minigames.

Since RPGs demand strong character identification, I've been experimenting with ways that you can both play a single character and survive over long stretches of time (as fits an empire game's scale). The means for survival MUST be technology independent, which (in theory) would provide a very surprising and flexible range of possibilities for the game world (empires could collapse or be conquered, for instance).

The game also (for the feel I'm after) must be free of out-of-game restoring (quickloading), and death needs to not end the play experience.

It might seem that spirits don't fit into this at all, but I think sci-fi has room for spirits (look at Peter F. Hamilton's the Naked God series, where spirits are explained as energy patterns that imprint on neural structures, and the dead come back to hijack the living). Storywise, your role as a spirit could have very alien origins, and could relate to the destiny of the human race.

Of course, the usual disclaimer applies: As I've said before, not everything I want will make it in. Shoot for the stars, as the saying goes, because even if you miss you might hit the moon. [smile]