Bioware's New Direction

There was a tiny amount of discussion on our news post about this

Ugh. I despise MMOs. Every game being made now is an MMO. No one wants to provide an enthralling single player experience. Instead, they want your monthly fee so they can dictate to you rules which they then proceed to ignore on a regular basis. Even if you play by their rules other players who flagrantly violate said rules are ignored, or farmers of one sort or another invade your space. Not to mention the number of people who play MMOs who are just plain jerks and idiots. To quote Penny Arcade, "Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad."

How many hours can we force someone to sit in front of their computer earning this piece of gear which we'll simply deprecate or change next release because it's overpowered, despite the fact that no one would have spent the time (or money on eBay) to obtain the item initially if it had the stats we're going to assign to it on revision?

I own every game Bioware has ever produced and I have a huge respect for the studio and their ability to do right. (I purchased an X-Box primarily for Jade Empire. There's a lot of other good games on the platform that I've discovered since then.) However, I don't believe an MMO can be done "right." No company wants to piss off their playerbase by making easy vs. normal vs. difficult classes, with ranging power. No company wants to alienate the farmers and lose thousands of accounts at once. No company wants to spend the time developing character classes which aren't simple copies of the fighter/magic-user/healer triad.

I have a level 60 rogue, a level 52 druid, and a level 51 warrior in World of Warcraft. I quit a few months after I hit 60 and realized that the entire game changed. WoW was a blast until 60 and then forced community service with the above anonymous Internet users made me realize how desperate I had to be to spend my time playing this game. But don't worry - WoW wasn't my first MMO experience. In Anarchy Online I managed to play a nanotech when they were completely frivolous (hint: opening day). In Shadowbane I managed to repeatedly lose every gold piece I worked for without noticing it being lifted. In Ultima Online I learned that folks who are willing to macro will always be in power. Asheron's Call is probably the only MMO I've been close to being satisfied with and even that required too much of an investment in time and energy to be worthwhile. Guild Wars is more of an FPS (IMO) but I do give them props for trying to free the player from the grip of the above problems - but the computer groupmates never compared to real ones. It's PvP centric nature doesn't gain it any points with me either.

Even in the original MMOs - MUDs - I found myself at the whim of implementators and other players in ways that I simply didn't enjoy. I remember having my pfile version forcibly upgraded and losing half my hit points... and becoming worthless as a tank. Thanks!

Dark Age of Camelot ended with every person being about PvP. This is another fact which disturbs me - why does every game end up being centered around PvP? Oh wait, I know. PvP offers a content free method for a game company to keep their playerbase online even longer. I don't want to PvP. I'd love to see multiplayer games which featured cooperative play (Halo? The original Doom?) rather than competitive play. Hell, in DAoC I couldn't get a group to romp through a dungeon because it was more important to go fighting an enemy which endlessly respawned in the frontiers...

Then again, I know I'm just dreaming.

Good luck Bioware. This is years in the future, I'm sure, but it's a product I won't purchase. Hurry up with NWN2. :)

Have you tried Guild Wars?

They don't charge monthly fee's (though they also claim it's not an MMORPG) and it seems good so far. I'm just past what's considered the tutorial phase.

It has zero grinding and is mainly PvP based. I've only played on the roleplay part of the game so far and the quests so far have been enjoyable though quite easy. I hear once I'm the tutorial phase (which I've just passed) the quests become more difficult. Hopefully the rewards for the quests justify the quests difficulties... I'm bored of my lame Leather armour :)

[Edited by - TomX on March 19, 2006 9:55:10 AM]

Talonus, I don't think your blanket comments of "MMOs suck" is justified because you're not a fan of PvP. Have you tried non PvP-oriented MMOs?

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In Shadowbane I managed to repeatedly lose every gold piece I worked for without noticing it being lifted.

This is completely your fault. One, you could of either played or partied with a scout, someone who is capable of detecting thieves. Two, thieves are revealed when they steal your gold, be more alert. Playing a game with the slogan "Play 2 Crush" and then bitching when you're taken advantage of by more cunning players is just wrong.

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In Ultima Online I learned that folks who are willing to macro will always be in power.

Obviously a player who puts more time into a game is going to be stronger than you. Does it really matter though? Once you've got your seven skills maxed, you're on an even playing field in UO. There are no classes which make one person stronger than the other.

Have you tried an MMO like D&D Online? It doesn't have any PvP (at all) and if you like Bioware games, it seems right up your alley. But seriously, don't bad mouth PvP MMOs because you don't like PvP.

Take the combat system of Baldur's Gate and the depth of storylines offered by the MMO genre and what do you get?

Complete crap!

Bioware is not exactly well suited to making MMO's.

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imaginary guy with too much power You mean we won't lose sale due to piracy AND we get to charge our customers over and over again every month? What the hell are we waiting for, lets make an MMORPG!!!

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Original post by TomX Have you tried Guild Wars? They don't charge monthly fee's (though they also claim it's not an MMORPG) and it seems good so far. I'm just past what's considered the tutorial phase. It has zero grinding and is mainly PvP based. I've only played on the roleplay part of the game so far and the quests so far have been enjoyable though quite easy. I hear once I'm the tutorial phase (which I've just passed) the quests become more difficult. Hopefully the rewards for the quests justify the quests difficulties... I'm bored of my lame Leather armour :)

They do have expansions every few months, where, if buy them amounts to about $10 a month though. The even better thing about that is that a late buyer (E.g. you) might want to get them, meaning they effectively get retroactive monthly pay. Talk about brilliant money making!!

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Original post by Cypher19 They do have expansions every few months, where, if buy them amounts to about $10 a month though. The even better thing about that is that a late buyer (E.g. you) might want to get them, meaning they effectively get retroactive monthly pay. Talk about brilliant money making!!

I'm not quite sure why everyone is stuck on this idea that expansions are coming out every few months. Guild Wars came out a long time ago, and the first expansion isn't out yet. At this rate, you're looking at about $3-5 a month.

Other MMO's charge for expansions as well. Minus the cost of a full-priced expansion from that $3-5 a month and what is your monthly fee? Almost nothing.

Expansions aren't a charge one is forced into, either. There's a difference between upgrading your game now and then by choice, and being forced to pay just to keep the game at all.

Not only that, but the expansions are also stand-alone games, so it's possible to buy only an expansion and not the original game if you want. You could also go back and buy the original game for a fraction of the original cost at this point.

The idea that Guild Wars is somehow suckering people just like other MMO's is a myth. It is a far, far cheaper and more fair system.

Luckily, Bioware is also producing stacks of single-player games: their original IP in Dragon Age and Mass Effect intrigues and delights my role-playing sensibilities.

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Original post by LockePick I'm not quite sure why everyone is stuck on this idea that expansions are coming out every few months. Guild Wars came out a long time ago, and the first expansion isn't out yet. At this rate, you're looking at about $3-5 a month.

Dunno either.

GW pt 1 came out end of april 2005.
GW pt 2 comes out on april 28 2006.

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Other MMO's charge for expansions as well. Minus the cost of a full-priced expansion from that $3-5 a month and what is your monthly fee? Almost nothing.

Exactly. WOW you pay full price for the game + 1 month free @ about 40€, then, if you bought 1 year in advanced about 10€ (guestimate).
total 150€.
Exansions will probably not be cheaper then 20€.

Thing is blizzard and the rest know that they can ask those prices and the people will pay.

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The idea that Guild Wars is somehow suckering people just like other MMO's is a myth. It is a far, far cheaper and more fair system.

Exactly!
The gw peeps (formerly blizzard d2 & wow devs) knew the system would work without monthly fees.

@Topic:
Bioware in mmos..
con: flooded market
pro: bioware is imho THE top dev studio I'd say would do it right.

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pro: bioware is imho THE top dev studio I'd say would do it right.

I've played my fair share of MMO's too, but since WoW I really don't feel like playing them anymore (as I figured, but I bought it anyway ;). IMO it becomes a bit of a drag real fast, so I'd much rather see decent single player games again, which I can play at my own leisure. Games like Shadow of the Colossus seem to provide this and I have similar hopes for Dragon Age (since I don't own a PS2 [oh]).

Bioware might be THE studio to pull off a sucessful MMORPG, but I'd rather see them focus on making Dragon Age as immersive as Baldur's Gate II. NWN was a great game and I liked it very much because of it's modding and "Persistent World" possibilities, but the single player campaign got nowhere near the quality of BGII.

Luckily Dragon Age reportedly is not even being tailored to support the NWN-style MMO play, so I'll just keep my hopes up :)

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Original post by remigius Quote: pro: bioware is imho THE top dev studio I'd say would do it right. I've played my fair share of MMO's too, but since WoW I really don't feel like playing them anymore (as I figured, but I bought it anyway ;). IMO it becomes a bit of a drag real fast, so I'd much rather see decent single player games again, which I can play at my own leisure. Games like Shadow of the Colossus seem to provide this and I have similar hopes for Dragon Age (since I don't own a PS2 [oh]). Bioware might be THE studio to pull off a sucessful MMORPG, but I'd rather see them focus on making Dragon Age as immersive as Baldur's Gate II. NWN was a great game and I liked it very much because of it's modding and "Persistent World" possibilities, but the single player campaign got nowhere near the quality of BGII. Luckily Dragon Age reportedly is not even being tailored to support the NWN-style MMO play, so I'll just keep my hopes up :)

Kinda what I am (poorly) trying to say.
While I think whatever bioware makes will turn out greate, I have my doubts about making a mmo.
Looking at games like BG,BG2 and NWN I'd say they do their thing which, is a good thing, but I doubt in challenging the simplified action online games like wow it will not be as good. If you want the big money you have to dumb it down and make it mass-compatible.

I'd rather see Bioware try a GuildWars.

NWN rocked and I played it for 2+ years on a persisten world.
If anything they should have put more effort into that.
Yeah SP sucked but maybe that should be taken as a sign. People want the multiplayer experiance even if it is in a limited dimension.

Maybe Bioware could do a thing where they offer the platform, kinda like a heavily extended but game-wise slimmed down NWN, and let the mod teams do the rest. Then maybe a team that makes a generic world. Just to sell the initial concept (the mod teams will dump it first sight anyway)

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Original post by Frank Henry Quote: Original post by LockePick I'm not quite sure why everyone is stuck on this idea that expansions are coming out every few months. Guild Wars came out a long time ago, and the first expansion isn't out yet. At this rate, you're looking at about $3-5 a month. Dunno either. GW pt 1 came out end of april 2005. GW pt 2 comes out on april 28 2006.

For the record, GW already had the free "Sorrow's Furnace" addon...

Another thing to know about Guild Wars expansions. They are not required AND it isn't an expansion. It is a stand-alone game. You can just buy the "expansion" and play it without buying the original game.

I like how all these companies are only highering for Senior and Lead positions, and I mean "like" in a facetious manner. It just demonstrates to me that management in the game industry is such that no-one developes talent from within (of course, this is pretty much true in any industry). These days nobody wants to promote their own employees, they want to hire people from outside into the position. So the only way you're going to move up in your career is to jump ship to another company.

When are companies going to learn that employees are not a liability, they are an asset, one that grows over time? Turnover is extremely expensive. But no, instead of promoting a senior developer whom is already familiar with all of our products and processes into a lead position, a junior developer into a senior developer, and hiring a new junior developer from the very large pool of talented graduates whom we can mould and train into a talented senior developer, we'd rather snipe a project manager from another company, spend copious amounts of time on getting him or her up to speed, and keep our developers in the pits with no hope of getting out of the wrist grinder.

please, all people with the 'monthly fees are not fair' syndrome shut up.

if i would be able to sell my shit for 100$ a dropping, that would be a fair price, otherwise i wouldnt be selling it.

get over yourself. its certainly a more viable and arguably more fair business model. chances are you are just a pirate whos frustrated he cant play games for free anymore.

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Original post by capn_midnight I like how all these companies are only highering for Senior and Lead positions, and I mean "like" in a facetious manner. It just demonstrates to me that management in the game industry is such that no-one developes talent from within (of course, this is pretty much true in any industry). These days nobody wants to promote their own employees, they want to hire people from outside into the position. So the only way you're going to move up in your career is to jump ship to another company. When are companies going to learn that employees are not a liability, they are an asset, one that grows over time? Turnover is extremely expensive. But no, instead of promoting a senior developer whom is already familiar with all of our products and processes into a lead position, a junior developer into a senior developer, and hiring a new junior developer from the very large pool of talented graduates whom we can mould and train into a talented senior developer, we'd rather snipe a project manager from another company, spend copious amounts of time on getting him or her up to speed, and keep our developers in the pits with no hope of getting out of the wrist grinder.

my spider-senses detect some bitterness...

Let's look at the job listings on GDNet alone:

• Artist (31)




1. LEAD GRAPHICS PROGRAMMER -Sr SEI


2. Community Liaison


3. Lead Animator


4. Artist


5. Art Director


6. Lead Artist


7. Character Modeler


8. Artists


9. Character Lead Artist


10. Cinematics Team Manager


11. Senior Character Artist


12. Environment Lead Artist


13. Lighting Technical Director


14. Lead Concept Artist


15. Lead Prop Modeler


16. Art Director


17. Level Designer


18. Lead Animator


19. Concept Artist


20. Character Modeller


21. Senior Environment Artist


22. Lead Animator


23. Senior Animator


24. Senior Animator


25. Visual Effects Artist


26. Character Modeler


27. Lead Character Artist


28. Lead Animator


29. Lead Technical Artist


30. Lead User Interface Artist


31. Lead Designer




• Audio/Sound (1)




1. Studio Audio Director




• Designer (10)




1. CA Senior Designer


2. Lead Scenario Designer


3. Lead Designer


4. Experienced Designers & Senior Designers


5. Lead Designer


6. Designer: SPORE


7. Senior Designer


8. Lead Game Designer


9. Game Designer


10. Senior Level Designer




• Manager/Executive (1)




1. European IT Manager




• Other (3)




1. Curriculum Developers and Instructors


2. Lecturer in 3D graphic design (1,0 FTE)


3. Script Writer




• Producer/Director (14)




1. Director- Developer Relations


2. Head of Technology


3. Project Lead


4. Senior Producer -External


5. Senior Director, Online Gaming Business Unit


6. Associate Producer


7. Creative Director


8. Games Producer, Disney Mobile Studios


9. Senior Producer of Gaming – Disney Online


10. Director – Product Development, Disney Online


11. Sims Technical Director


12. Submissions Coordinator


13. Program Manager/Technical Producer


14. Associate Producer




• Programmer (50)




1. AI Artificial Intelligence Programmer


2. Graphics Programmer (Rendering)


3. UI / Visual FX Engineer


4. Networking Engineer- Multiplayer


5. Software Engineer (Services)


6. Software Engineer- Game Developer


7. Intermediate Level Programmer


8. Senior Level Programmer


9. Senior Software Developer


10. Entry level Programmer


11. Programmer


12. Software Engineer


13. AI Knowledge Engineer/Project Leader


14. Network Engineer


15. Mobile Developer


16. Lead Gameplay Engineer


17. Presentation Engineer


18. Gameplay Engineer


19. Online Game Software Engineer


20. AI Programmer


21. Senior AI Programmer


22. Graphics Engineer


23. Experienced Programmers & Senior Programmers


24. GAMEPLAY ENGINEER


25. Game Engineer


26. WORLD CONSTRUCTION TOOLS ENGINEER


27. LEAD SYSTEMS ENGINEER


28. Programmer


29. Senior Software Engineer


30. Senior Programmer/Software Engineer


31. Software Engineer


32. Programmer


33. PS3 Port Programmer


34. PS3 Platform Lead


35. Senior Software Engineer


36. Programmer


37. Gameplay Programmer and PC Port Lead


38. Network Programmer


39. Gameplay Programmer


40. Senior Programmer


41. Senior Game Networking Programmer


42. Senior Graphics Programmer


43. Tech Programmer


44. Professor, Game and Simulation Programming


45. Tools Programmer


46. Lead Tools Programmer


47. Lead Gameplay Programmer


48. Software Development Engineer in Test


49. C++ Programmer


50. Programmers




• QA/Testing (4)




1. Quality Assurance Lead


2. Technical Standards Analyst


3. Quality Assurance Supervisor


4. Quality Assurance Technical Standards Engineer

Out of 114 jobs, ONE is for an entry level position and 64 are for positions mentioning the words Lead, Director, Senior, Manager, or Producer. If you consider that someone labeled as an Engineer is also probably a senior position, that makes an additional 17 positions. Why is the game industry hemoraging talent? If it were a good industry in which to work, the senior workers would stay, the business would be growing, and the companies would need all the new people they could get, i.e. you would see a huge recruitment drive for junior developers. As it is, <1% of the positions are for junior developers, and >70% are for senior positions.

[Edited by - capn_midnight on March 20, 2006 10:53:40 AM]

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Original post by capn_midnight Let's look at the job listings on GDNet alone: ... Out of 114 jobs, ONE is for an entry level position. Why is the game industry hemoraging talent?

I've thought this before, but when I thought about it hard... game companies get flooded with applications for entry positions, so advertising them isn't really needed (I think I read somewhere that Blizzard gets 100+ applications daily).

---

As for the "Games are moving MMO" discussion, I think that's not only to do with monthly fees, but piracy. MMO's can only (for the most part I should say) be pirated if someone either finds a way to steal the server code, or reproduce/write it and host it themselves. Overall, it's a pretty solid business model: The customer will pay every month to play, and the business can keep a very tight eye on it's selling and use.

That being said though, I'm really starting to miss good single-player games like a lot of people here. Ahhh... at least Oblivion has shipped [grin]