Outsourced game programmers

I don't think "everything else" is getting outsourced all that much. There seems to be a relatively healthy employed-developer community in Canada, for example.

All I've seen here in BC is that companies are dying to find good programmers (emphasis on good, I've seen and talked to a number of hiring managers who say they'd rather leave a position unfilled than hire someone who isn't right for it). In any case, I've had no trouble getting jobs and neither has anyone I know.

The job market for game programmers with no experience is poor as always. It has little to do with "outsourcing", rather it has everything to do with requiring experience.

I just saw an ad on gamasutra. It was about a conference in LA on August 14th. On outsourcing. Looks like our hobby, dreams and lifestyle is going over seas. Video games make so much money and to pay someone over seas 2 bucks an hour is not only unfair, exploitive and greedy. That's all there is to it. Come on man it is a multi billion dollar industry. Share the wealth. I think game programmers around the world should get together and make unions or guilds and set standard pay rates. Jobs should be competitive by merit and skill not low balling methods.

I have a friend in India and in Thailand. Both work for outsourcing companies. They say they don't even earn anything close to what tech workers in the states make. That their companies is run by mobsters who invite big companies from the west to take advantage of the cheap work force there. This is no different from the sweat shops for garmet factories. Making the rich richer and the poorer poorer.

One fact that people seem to neglect when talking about outsourcing is that it only affects the average to mediocre programmers. Quite frankly if you are a really good programmer than you have absolutely nothing to worry about and would not even care about outsourcing.

It's a global economy, get used to it. Companies finally have other ways of getting things done rather than overpaying some average programmer who does a lousy job anyway. I know some absolutely brilliant developers working in India right now, are you saying they shouldn't be allowed to work?

I make a very decent living as a freelance programmer (enough to rent a nice sized house, own a camaro, and go through 3 value-sized boxs of hot pockets a week), AND I live in the US, on multiple occasions I have done work with employers who lived in india. Outsourcing isnt exactly a bad thing, and Saruman is right about that. What is shitty is that we are allowed to outsource to companies in countries where it is illegal or highly taxed to export BACK. India is a good example of this, where you must establish a specific type of corporation, and file extreemly detailed import/export documentation, as well as explain what service you are importing (which is highly scrutinized, and taxed)

In addition, you should take a quick look at the tax breaks in india regarding software development. They can pay an extreemly low flat rate percentage, i believe this is in the area of 1-2%.

As for the global econ. Basic economics dictates exactly what happends in a true global economy, everything evens out. The problem is that for the first world countries and third world countries to even out, we must lose much of our ground. So yea, QOL has to go way down in america, canada, europe, and japan for this to all work.

That being said, while there are lots of people in india that work for pennies on the hour, those programmers are specialized brute-force coders that are average at best. Add in the language barrier and outsourcing doesent always save money in that premise. So they are getting the "shitty" programming jobs that people in our countries complain about anyways.

No what I am saying is pay the Indian a decent wage. Do not take advantage of him. Are you saying that there are no mediocore indian programmars. Just saying that as a global community of game programmers we should unite to protect our jobs. Companies will tell you it is for the best. I say it is bull. They are just trying to pay pennies for somehting that is worth millions. It is just greed plain old greed. Robber Barons had at least the decency to tell you in your face. "YOUR FIRED!!!!!"

Moved to the lounge

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Original post by PaulCesar As for the global econ. Basic economics dictates exactly what happends in a true global economy, everything evens out. The problem is that for the first world countries and third world countries to even out, we must lose much of our ground. So yea, QOL has to go way down in america, canada, europe, and japan for this to all work.

Basic economics is written from the point of view of bankers, investors and CEO's, not from the point of view of people who actually lose ground when their jobs get sent overseas. Dictates is an excellent choice of words.

In actuality though, we ARNT taking advantage of them. The average salary (across the board, not just including computers) is $1-2 a day. $1000/month can get you a very nice house, car, and a servent (according to one of my previous employers out there). If it wasnt for the poor drinking water and proximity to islamic countries, i would move there in a heartbeat.

Edit: nothing against islamic countries, I just dont enjoy the culture :)

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Original post by Saruman One fact that people seem to neglect when talking about outsourcing is that it only affects the average to mediocre programmers. Quite frankly if you are a really good programmer than you have absolutely nothing to worry about and would not even care about outsourcing.

Quoted for truth. I work at a company that outsources. We give them jobs that most artists and programmers can do. All other important jobs that need strict control and monitoring remain here.

Lets see, school loan in computer science 60 grand. Sleepless night trying to learn programming countless. Served my country in the US military to earn the G.I. bill. Then to have corporate America tell you as an American that you are an untalented programmer, PRICELESS!!!. I find it hard to believe that American IT workers are an untalented lot as they say. After all we did start the computer revolution the information highway, created the software that runs the world info structure. Invented video games!!!

Actually, the things you describe were mostly done by American academics and hobbyists.

Take it up with your government, which actively encourages outsourcing.

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Original post by boolai [...]I find it hard to believe that American IT workers are an untalented lot as they say.[...]

You should move to America, so you can see the great number of professionals that are entirely uninterested in their chosen trade and have no passion for the job they'll be doing for the rest of their life.

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Original post by boolaiVideo games make so much money and to pay someone over seas 2 bucks an hour is not only unfair, exploitive and greedy. That's all there is to it.

No, it's not exploitive. Just because they're willing to work for less to survive, doesn't mean it's wrong. Same with companies moving to Mexico.

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Come on man it is a multi billion dollar industry. Share the wealth. I think game programmers around the world should get together and make unions or guilds and set standard pay rates. Jobs should be competitive by merit and skill not low balling methods.

Unions are evil. Unions are why work is going over seas to begin with. Without unions, wages would never have gotten as high as they are in America (some factories with mediocre jobs that any high school drop out can do paying upwards of $25 an hour). Companies simply see the opportunity elsewhere.

I agree with everyone else as well. Get really good at what you do, don't demand too much money, and you'll be all set. Either that or start your own game development company. Then you never have to worry about outsourcing :).

Americans are passionate about their jobs. Thats why there is so many people trying to break into the industry. Unions are not evil large corporations are. If it was not for Unions and job protection laws. There will still be child labor, people with out retirement plans and so forth. I've lived in countries were there is no retirement funds and jobs are exploitive. You know what ends up happening? The crime rate goes up because your young people need to make a living and working in Walmart does not cut it. The mobsters move in to prey on the poor. Corporation send our jobs over seas and then when there is a problem that needs to be resolved the military gets sent in. With the same people that those corporations refused to give jobs to.

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Original post by boolai [...] Thats why there is so many people trying to break into the industry. [...] If it was not for Unions and job protection laws. There will still be child labor, people with out retirement plans and so forth. [...]

Some employers value communication skills. The reason your job is getting outsource is because someone else is willing to do the same work for less. That's the way capitalism works, it's been like that since the beginning of time, and only now you start to complain. You'll get a job once you prove yourself worth hiring (whether it's because of your skills, the convenience, etc).

Sorry I have not complained before, since I was not around for the beginning of time. Maybe I should not complain anymore. I should just work for cheese and crackers and live in a cardboard box. Hey even better work for the companies for free and have the goverment put me in section 8. Hey maybe they will have universal health care too? That way I won't bother the companies for health care benifits. Hey but maybe the companies will lower the cost of their products so I can support them still. The rich live off the poor not the other way around.