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Phase of Impact: Global Systemic Crises

Started by LessBread Oct 31, 2006 at 3:26 PM 16 replies 2.4k views
Original Post
LessBread
LessBread
This is not meant as a Halloween scare - but it is scary. I also have a lot of ground to cover, so my presentation might be choppy. Please bear with me. The European think tank LEAP recently published it's Global Europe Anticipation Bulletin N°8 for November 2006 which contains a startling prediction that a global economic crisis will impact next month. This itself isn't remarkable (there's no lack for naysayers), except that back in May this group predicted that an economic accelaration would begin in June and spread out over the ensueing months and so far they have been proven right. The bulletin lays out the situation succinctly with ample graphs and linked footnotes to support it's assertion. The short of it is that they are predicting a financial meltdown to rival the Wall Street Crash of 1929. They predict that a series of crisis will contaminate the entire system, that it will last from six months to a year, and that the end result will be a radical and permanent change to the system. While the establishment media hasn't picked up on this news (and won't likely for fear of sparking a panic), alternative media from both the economic right and left have. Richard Daughty of the Free Market Network News writes about it here: How Chow Do Pan Ho Wan?, and discusses it here: radio commentary. He brings attention to the fact that even though the DOW has been going through the roof lately, the Plunge Protection Team has been meeting every 6 weeks. The Daily Telegraph has picked up on that fact, Paulson re-activates secretive support team to prevent markets meltdown, and also mentions that this group "will have a command centre at the US Treasury that will track global markets and serve as an operations base in the next crisis." Daughty sees this as a potential move by the US government to take over the global economy. Daughty references this article from the Wall Street Journal, China's Reserves Near Milestone, Underscoring Its Financial Clout (also available here), announcing that China's currency reserve holdings will soon top $1 trillion and that Chinese central banks are worried about inflation and may cut back on buying U.S. Treasury debt. He also notes recent news that Australia's treasurer has asked Asian central banks to "telegraph" their intentions to dump dollars should they decide to do that in order to maintain stability in the system,Costello seeks orderly $US withdrawal. Left commentator Mike Whitney adds his two cents to the story here: The Dollar's Full-System Meltdown. He relies on the same sources as Daughty but draws a different set of conclusions from them, seeing this a part of a deliberate effort to crush the American middle class and what remains of the New Deal safety net. He goes on to connect the dots with the Military Commissions Act of 2006 and the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 (both of which we discussed here), describing this conjunction as essentially overturning the Constitution: The administration’s dream of militarizing the country under the sole authority of the executive has now been achieved although the public still has no idea that a coup that has taken place. He goes on to discuss the various impacts of these moves and ends up focusing on oil, but he doesn't go so far as to make explicit the implications of what he writes, which is, in my view, that the US will attempt to military control the oil resources of the Caspian Basin. As fun as a discussion of all that would be, that's not the turn that I want to make. Here's another look at the precarious state of the US economy, Bush's Economic Policies: Don't Look Behind the Curtain. It fleshes out the contours of the hidden terrain behind what the GEAB called the "phase of acceleration". Although it carries an obvious political slant, it doesn't take things as far as either Daughty or Whitney. Ok, so here's the turn. The corporate media has been picking up news coming out of England about a brand new British Treasury study that found that global warming could produce the worst global economic recession in history if nothing is done about it: Tackle climate change or face deep recession, world's leaders warned. In spite of the bona fides of the people that produced this study, it's acceptance is not a done deal. Now, despite the general enthusiasm with which the report has been received, I confess that I am dubious not so much about the analysis as about the chances of the world taking this seriously., The approaching storm. See also, Sceptics scorn climate report prediction of global chaos, Analysts sceptical about report's impact in US - and benefits of using Al Gore, Scientists, American public disagree sharply over global warming. Most of those links are from the Guardian, but I suspect that the story will get more coverage in the United States after the election next week. Anyway. Here's my question. In light of all this context, do you think a global economic collapse per the GEAB would change public attitudes about the economic effect of global warming per the Stern report or will it harden them against it? Please elaborate a little on your answer.
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
choffstein
choffstein
First, a question: Did the first part of your post even have anything to do with the second part? Basically, you present a bunch of evidence about the fall of the US dollar. Fine. Then you present evidence that the global recession will occur because of global warming? How are you trying to relate them here.

Now my response to your question: Puhh-lease. Global warming is still so highly debated (though, probably generally accepted), that it would be a bit hard to recognize it as the reason for a global economic recession. Either way, there seems to be two scenarios. The first is where macro meets micro, and companies are forced through legislation of governments to handle previously ignored externalities. Boo hoo. If anything, this will force innovation and probably create more jobs. So what is the second scenario? Oh, world wide catastrophes.

If we are having world wide natural catastrophes, I don't think the 'economy' will be our biggest concern.

Diodor
Diodor
Quote:
From GEAB #2
1- March 20-26, 2006 – Release of major world crisis: « The End of the Western World we have known since 1945 »
We estimate to over 80% the probability that the week of March 20 to 6, 2006 will be the beginning of the most significant political crisis the world has known since the Fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989, together with an economic and financial crisis of comparable scope to the 1929 crisis. This last week of March 2006 will be the turning-point of a number of critical developments, resulting in an acceleration of all the factors leading to a major crisis, disregard any American or Israeli military intervention against Iran. In case such an intervention is conducted, the probability of a major crisis to start rises up to 100%, according to LEAP/E2020… (pages 2 et 3)


Quote:
GEAB N°6 - Contents
1- Global systemic crisis - Phase II: Only a few weeks left to avoid the worse…
The start of phase II, the so called “acceleration phase” embodied in the fall of all stock market indicators of the planet, and in particular those of the main stock exchanges, means that leaders of the world economic and international financial system (central bankers, G8 Ministers for Finance, the IMF.) are carrying on a flight forward strategy, pretending to validate situations that they actually do not control, and that they had not anticipated at all... (p. 2)


I estimate to over 80% the probability that the GEAB team don't always know what they're talking about.

Quote:
Original post by Lessbread
Here's my question. In light of all this context, do you think a global economic collapse per the GEAB would change public attitudes about the economic effect of global warming per the Stern report or will it harden them against it? Please elaborate a little on your answer.


I'm tempted to assume real economic hardship will deter the propensity to worry about the weather, although the added stress and depression may cause the opposite effect of increasing eschatological tendencies. I predict attitudinal change.
Eelco
Eelco
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Ok, so here's the turn. The corporate media has been picking up news coming out of England about a brand new British Treasury study that found that global warming could produce the worst global economic recession in history if nothing is done about it: Tackle climate change or face deep recession, world's leaders warned. In spite of the bona fides of the people that produced this study, it's acceptance is not a done deal. Now, despite the general enthusiasm with which the report has been received, I confess that I am dubious not so much about the analysis as about the chances of the world taking this seriously., The approaching storm.


i havnt read anything of the rapport behind it yet, but the second hand information i have read talks about a reduction in global economic growth of 1/5th. hardly the same as a deep recession. but what do you expect from a source which places katrina pictures next to an article about global warming.
owl
owl
Changes are always good. Also crises.
[size="2"]I like the Walrus best.
LessBread
LessBread
Quote:
Original post by visage
First, a question: Did the first part of your post even have anything to do with the second part? Basically, you present a bunch of evidence about the fall of the US dollar. Fine. Then you present evidence that the global recession will occur because of global warming? How are you trying to relate them here.

Now my response to your question: Puhh-lease. Global warming is still so highly debated (though, probably generally accepted), that it would be a bit hard to recognize it as the reason for a global economic recession. Either way, there seems to be two scenarios. The first is where macro meets micro, and companies are forced through legislation of governments to handle previously ignored externalities. Boo hoo. If anything, this will force innovation and probably create more jobs. So what is the second scenario? Oh, world wide catastrophes.

If we are having world wide natural catastrophes, I don't think the 'economy' will be our biggest concern.


The first part regarding the collapse of the dollar is immediate term and has very little if anything to do with global warming. The forecast predicts the crisis will begin in the next few weeks and last through next year.

The second part regarding global warming is long term. That forecast asserts that if we don't do start to do something about global warming now, the long term impact will be a 20% reduction in global gdp (and thus a recession).

There is no direct connection between the two issues beyond their contemporaneousness but it stands to reason that an economic collapse and subsequent restructuring of the global economy is a grand opportunity to start to do something about global warming now. That nexus resides as the heart of my question. Put another way, in light of an economic meltdown, will the public continue to believe the notion that responding to global warming will damage the economy and thus stick to business as usual or will the public reject such assertions as coming from the same people that promoted the very policies that lead to the meltdown?



"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
Eelco
Eelco
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
The second part regarding global warming is long term. That forecast asserts that if we don't do start to do something about global warming now, the long term impact will be a 20% reduction in global gdp (and thus a recession).


gdp or gdp growth? thats a not-so-subtle difference.
LessBread
LessBread
Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
The second part regarding global warming is long term. That forecast asserts that if we don't do start to do something about global warming now, the long term impact will be a 20% reduction in global gdp (and thus a recession).


gdp or gdp growth? thats a not-so-subtle difference.


The day that changed the climate

Quote:

...
As well as producing a catastrophic vision of hundreds of millions fleeing flooding and drought, Sir Nicholas suggests that the cost of inaction could be a permanent loss of 20 per cent of global output.

That equates to a figure of £3.68 trillion - while to act quickly would cost the equivalent of £184bn annually, 1 per cent of world GDP.
...


Stern by numbers

Quote:

...
£200bn, or 1 per cent of global GDP, must be spent every year to get carbon dioxide levels to "stabilise" at 550ppm. This figure will rise as world GDP increases, and could be three to four times as large by 2050
...


So what does the Stern Report mean for the world?

Quote:

...
Does the report have a key conclusion?

Yes. That although dealing with global warming by cutting emissions of greenhouse gases will cost a lot of money - about 1 per cent of the world's gross domestic product, trillions of dollars - doing nothing about it will cost the world an awful lot more, anything from five to 20 times more. We face losing up to a fifth of the world's wealth from unmitigated climate change, says the review - if unchecked, it will devastate the global economy on the scale of the Great Depression or the 20th century's world wars.
...


Those are all from the same source. You're of course free to find your own sources.
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
Eelco
Eelco
no that (the source) seems credible enough to me. i must have misread it earlier.

[Edited by - Eelco on October 31, 2006 6:29:50 PM]
Eelco
Eelco
the artice 'Stern by numbers' give some insight in this article. nothing new. greenpeace shouldnt get too exited over this, because i suspect blair probably came up with this to push ahead with his nuclear power plans.

lets cover the points brought up:
Quote:

60 million more Africans could be exposed to malaria if world temperatures rise by 2C

malaria existed right here not too long ago. malaria is a function of wealth much more than climate, as empirical studies clearly show. what part of africa has a climate lesss conductive to mosquitos than the netherlands? never heard of it.

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35 per cent drop in crop yields across Africa and the Middle East is expected if temperatures rise by 3C

why? contrary to popular belief the afican deserts are receding. higher global temperatures do not mean less rain but more. sure, rain is more likely to fall in relatively cold areas but that doesnt mean higher temperatures mean less rain: global total evaporation is a function of temperature, and relatively cold areas will always exist, no matter what.

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200 million more people could be exposed to hunger if world temperatures rise by 2C

550 million more people could be at risk of hunger if world temperatures rise by 3C

thats just too vague to attack, but i supposed its based on more of the above: perception bias. areas that might get drier than they are now attract more research than areas that might get wetter, because those areas have more vested interests and make for a better story.

historically higher global temperatures correlate strongly with increased biological activity. not to mention CO2. it is THE bottleneck for fast crop growth.

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4 million square kilometres of land, home to one-twentieth of the world's population, is threatened by floods from melting glaciers

glaciers have been growing and melting longer than today, and it has never been a significant problem.

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35,000 Europeans died in the 2003 heatwave, an event likely to become 'commonplace'

talking about obvious bullshit. sure, more elderly people die in a heatwave, but none that wouldnt have otherwise died a few months later. all it does is create a fluctuation in the deathrate: it doesnt significantly impact lifespan at all, and if so in a way that is nothing but positive for the economy.

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4 billion people could suffer from water shortage if temperatures rise by 2C

sure, if you naively add all regions that might get less rainfall for a worst case scenario (all regions apply for that given our lacking knowledge on the subject) except that this is not possible if total rainfall is a zero sum or even positive sum game under higher temperatures. evaporated water has to come down somewhere sooner or later.

[Edited by - Eelco on October 31, 2006 6:01:22 PM]
LessBread
LessBread
Quote:
Original post by Eelco
the artice 'Stern by numbers' give some insight in this article. nothing new. greenpeace shouldnt get too exited over this, because i suspect blair probably came up with this to push ahead with his nuclear power plans.


Insight into which article?

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

60 million more Africans could be exposed to malaria if world temperatures rise by 2C

malaria existed right here not too long ago. malaria is a function of wealth much more than climate, as empirical studies clearly show. what part of africa has a climate lesss conductive to mosquitos than the netherlands? never heard of it.


The operative word of that sentence is "exposed". Even if your claim regarding empirical studies is true, without referencing the wealth trends in Africa your criticism here is meaningless.

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Original post by Eelco
Quote:

35 per cent drop in crop yields across Africa and the Middle East is expected if temperatures rise by 3C

why? contrary to popular belief the afican deserts are receding. higher global temperatures do not mean less rain but more. sure, rain is more likely to fall in relatively cold areas but that doesnt mean higher temperatures mean less rain: global total evaporation is a function of temperature, and relatively cold areas will always exist, no matter what.


Another unfounded assertion from you. Who says the African deserts are receding? Who says that higher global temperatures mean more rain? Exxon-Mobile? Chevron? Shell? BP?

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Original post by Eelco
Quote:

200 million more people could be exposed to hunger if world temperatures rise by 2C

550 million more people could be at risk of hunger if world temperatures rise by 3C

thats just too vague to attack, but i supposed its based on more of the above: perception bias. areas that might get drier than they are now attract more research than areas that might get wetter, because those areas have more vested interests and make for a better story.


If there is a perception bias it's not as you describe. Areas where more people live attract more research. Whether such areas get drier or wetter isn't the issue, it's the displacement of people that is the concern. Funny thing, it seems to me that most global warming talk has been about the potential flooding of low lying coastal regions, not the desertification of inland regions.

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Original post by Eelco
historically higher global temperatures correlate strongly with increased biological activity. not to mention CO2. it is THE bottleneck for fast crop growth.


Again, says who?

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

4 million square kilometres of land, home to one-twentieth of the world's population, is threatened by floods from melting glaciers

glaciers have been growing and melting longer than today, and it has never been a significant problem.


There are 6+ billion people alive today. That wasn't the case 10,000 years ago.

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
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35,000 Europeans died in the 2003 heatwave, an event likely to become 'commonplace'

talking about obvious bullshit. sure, more elderly people die in a heatwave, but none that wouldnt have otherwise died a few months later. all it does is create a fluctuation in the deathrate: it doesnt significantly impact lifespan at all, and if so in a way that is nothing but positive for the economy.


That's a very cold thing to say. I suppose you think society should hand out cyanide pills to the elderly with instructions telling them to kill themselves today because they're going to die tomorrow anyway? Doesn't significantly impact lifespan? Says who? A positive for the economy? Are you saying that people should serve the economy rather than the other way around?

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

4 billion people could suffer from water shortage if temperatures rise by 2C

sure, if you naively add all regions that might get less rainfall for a worst case scenario (all regions apply for that given our lacking knowledge on the subject) except that this is not possible if total rainfall is a zero sum or even positive sum game under higher temperatures. evaporated water has to come down somewhere sooner or later.


Our lack of knowledge on the subject? Says who?

At any rate, this is all very off topic.


"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
Eelco
Eelco
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Quote:
Original post by Eelco
the artice 'Stern by numbers' give some insight in this article. nothing new. greenpeace shouldnt get too exited over this, because i suspect blair probably came up with this to push ahead with his nuclear power plans.

Insight into which article?

i suppose study is a better word for it.

Quote:

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

60 million more Africans could be exposed to malaria if world temperatures rise by 2C

malaria existed right here not too long ago. malaria is a function of wealth much more than climate, as empirical studies clearly show. what part of africa has a climate lesss conductive to mosquitos than the netherlands? never heard of it.

The operative word of that sentence is "exposed". Even if your claim regarding empirical studies is true, without referencing the wealth trends in Africa your criticism here is meaningless.

ok, lets rephrase: how do you imagine people in africa could get any more exposed to malaria than they already are? the climate is already conductive to malaria everywhere. and as for possible declining wealth trends: why dont you make them likely first?

Quote:

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

35 per cent drop in crop yields across Africa and the Middle East is expected if temperatures rise by 3C

why? contrary to popular belief the afican deserts are receding. higher global temperatures do not mean less rain but more. sure, rain is more likely to fall in relatively cold areas but that doesnt mean higher temperatures mean less rain: global total evaporation is a function of temperature, and relatively cold areas will always exist, no matter what.

Another unfounded assertion from you. Who says the African deserts are receding? Who says that higher global temperatures mean more rain? Exxon-Mobile? Chevron? Shell? BP?

who says that isnt the case? for all the people eager to state it, ive never found someone willing to explain WHY a warmer earth would mean less rain, while common sense points rather strongly in the opposite direction.

Quote:

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

200 million more people could be exposed to hunger if world temperatures rise by 2C

550 million more people could be at risk of hunger if world temperatures rise by 3C

thats just too vague to attack, but i supposed its based on more of the above: perception bias. areas that might get drier than they are now attract more research than areas that might get wetter, because those areas have more vested interests and make for a better story.

If there is a perception bias it's not as you describe. Areas where more people live attract more research. Whether such areas get drier or wetter isn't the issue, it's the displacement of people that is the concern. Funny thing, it seems to me that most global warming talk has been about the potential flooding of low lying coastal regions, not the desertification of inland regions.

displacement of people you say? has there ever been bigger displacements of people and a more rapidly changing society as a whole than in the last century? has there ever been more economic growth than in the last century? not to say the two correlate, but evidently we can handle a lot of change spread out over the course of a hunderd years or so.

Quote:

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
historically higher global temperatures correlate strongly with increased biological activity. not to mention CO2. it is THE bottleneck for fast crop growth.

Again, says who?

ask a greenhouse farmer. theyll be able to answer both.

Quote:

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

35,000 Europeans died in the 2003 heatwave, an event likely to become 'commonplace'

talking about obvious bullshit. sure, more elderly people die in a heatwave, but none that wouldnt have otherwise died a few months later. all it does is create a fluctuation in the deathrate: it doesnt significantly impact lifespan at all, and if so in a way that is nothing but positive for the economy.

That's a very cold thing to say. I suppose you think society should hand out cyanide pills to the elderly with instructions telling them to kill themselves today because they're going to die tomorrow anyway? Doesn't significantly impact lifespan? Says who? A positive for the economy? Are you saying that people should serve the economy rather than the other way around?

try taking my words simply for what they are for once. then again, then you wouldnt have a cover for the fact that a noob just unopposedly brushed aside one of the points of a study that we are supposed to take seriously.

Quote:

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
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4 billion people could suffer from water shortage if temperatures rise by 2C

sure, if you naively add all regions that might get less rainfall for a worst case scenario (all regions apply for that given our lacking knowledge on the subject) except that this is not possible if total rainfall is a zero sum or even positive sum game under higher temperatures. evaporated water has to come down somewhere sooner or later.

Our lack of knowledge on the subject? Says who?

we cant even say much about future global trends, let alone the details of specific regions. im not aware of any scientist that would dare claim with any certainty he knew how the climate of a specific region was going to evolve in the coming century. ALL regions could get drier, global warming or no.

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At any rate, this is all very off topic.

not at all. it ties in perfectly with the other topic of this double-thread aswell: vague doomsday scenarios arnt to be taken on face value.
LessBread
LessBread
Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:
Original post by LessBread
Quote:
Original post by Eelco
the artice 'Stern by numbers' give some insight in this article. nothing new. greenpeace shouldnt get too exited over this, because i suspect blair probably came up with this to push ahead with his nuclear power plans.

Insight into which article?

i suppose study is a better word for it.


More like insight into how the Independent is covering the Stern study.

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

60 million more Africans could be exposed to malaria if world temperatures rise by 2C

malaria existed right here not too long ago. malaria is a function of wealth much more than climate, as empirical studies clearly show. what part of africa has a climate lesss conductive to mosquitos than the netherlands? never heard of it.

The operative word of that sentence is "exposed". Even if your claim regarding empirical studies is true, without referencing the wealth trends in Africa your criticism here is meaningless.

ok, lets rephrase: how do you imagine people in africa could get any more exposed to malaria than they already are? the climate is already conductive to malaria everywhere. and as for possible declining wealth trends: why dont you make them likely first?


To start with, I would imagine it by seeking information about current exposure. Africa is a continent and continents are quite large after all. Without knowing the range of malaria in Africa, I would guess that it doesn't cover the entire continent, that it doesn't cover all of South Africa, for example, but that as temperatures rise the range would grow. I disagree that the climate is already conducive to malaria everywhere. Check out the map here: Malaria: Geographic Distribution. In regard to wealth, I didn't bring that topic up you did, I simply pointed out that merely bringing up the topic wasn't sufficient to debunk the factoid form the article. Furthermore, I didn't say anything about the direction of the trend. Having looked into the issue a little, I should point out that the CDC reference above focuses more on climate than it does on wealth. Indeed, it leads off thusly: Where malaria is found depends mainly on climatic factors such as temperature, humidity, and rainfalls. Moreover, the detailed epidemiology page from the CDC says, Climate can influence all three components of the life cycle. It is thus a key determinant in the geographic distribution and the seasonality of malaria.. So much for your claim that empirical studies show that malaria is a function of wealth more than climate.

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Original post by Eelco
Quote:

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

35 per cent drop in crop yields across Africa and the Middle East is expected if temperatures rise by 3C

why? contrary to popular belief the afican deserts are receding. higher global temperatures do not mean less rain but more. sure, rain is more likely to fall in relatively cold areas but that doesnt mean higher temperatures mean less rain: global total evaporation is a function of temperature, and relatively cold areas will always exist, no matter what.

Another unfounded assertion from you. Who says the African deserts are receding? Who says that higher global temperatures mean more rain? Exxon-Mobile? Chevron? Shell? BP?

who says that isnt the case? for all the people eager to state it, ive never found someone willing to explain WHY a warmer earth would mean less rain, while common sense points rather strongly in the opposite direction.


For starters, The United Nations [1]. If you've never found someone willing to explain it to you that's because you haven't looked. The short of it is that a warmer earth disrupts rainfall patterns. Some areas get more rain, some get less rain. Common sense has nothing to do with it. In fact, this is an excellent example of how common sense is useless in this regard. If the common sense there where it rains a lot is that a warmer earth means more rain, how is it that the common sense here where it doesn't rain a lot is that a warmer earth means less rain?

Global warming study predicts 'wild ride' for U.S.

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...
As the world warms, there will be more rain likely in the tropical Pacific Ocean, and that will change the air flow for certain areas, much like El Niño weather oscillations now do, said study co-author Gerald Meehl, a top computer modeler at the research center.

Those changes will affect the American West, Australia and Brazil, even though it's on South America's eastern coast.

For the Mediterranean, the issue has more to do with rainfall in the tropical Atlantic Ocean changing air currents, he said.
...


See also: Western Warming Warning, The Century of Drought, Climate water threat to millions, African apocalypse: The continent burning into a desert, Investors bet on rising costs for scarce water.

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Original post by Eelco
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Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

200 million more people could be exposed to hunger if world temperatures rise by 2C

550 million more people could be at risk of hunger if world temperatures rise by 3C

thats just too vague to attack, but i supposed its based on more of the above: perception bias. areas that might get drier than they are now attract more research than areas that might get wetter, because those areas have more vested interests and make for a better story.

If there is a perception bias it's not as you describe. Areas where more people live attract more research. Whether such areas get drier or wetter isn't the issue, it's the displacement of people that is the concern. Funny thing, it seems to me that most global warming talk has been about the potential flooding of low lying coastal regions, not the desertification of inland regions.

displacement of people you say? has there ever been bigger displacements of people and a more rapidly changing society as a whole than in the last century? has there ever been more economic growth than in the last century? not to say the two correlate, but evidently we can handle a lot of change spread out over the course of a hunderd years or so.


It's not just me saying it. The Pentagon study on global warming said it. They also see the military’s being used to secure national borders against waves of refugees from less-hospitable regions like Scandinavia. [2]. Also see the "threat to millions" link above. Whether or not there have been displacements in the past isn't relevant. People have gotten in car crashes in the past too, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid crashing your car whenever possible.

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Original post by Eelco
Quote:

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
historically higher global temperatures correlate strongly with increased biological activity. not to mention CO2. it is THE bottleneck for fast crop growth.

Again, says who?

ask a greenhouse farmer. theyll be able to answer both.


In other words, you're just making stuff up.

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Original post by Eelco
Quote:

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

35,000 Europeans died in the 2003 heatwave, an event likely to become 'commonplace'

talking about obvious bullshit. sure, more elderly people die in a heatwave, but none that wouldnt have otherwise died a few months later. all it does is create a fluctuation in the deathrate: it doesnt significantly impact lifespan at all, and if so in a way that is nothing but positive for the economy.

That's a very cold thing to say. I suppose you think society should hand out cyanide pills to the elderly with instructions telling them to kill themselves today because they're going to die tomorrow anyway? Doesn't significantly impact lifespan? Says who? A positive for the economy? Are you saying that people should serve the economy rather than the other way around?

try taking my words simply for what they are for once. then again, then you wouldnt have a cover for the fact that a noob just unopposedly brushed aside one of the points of a study that we are supposed to take seriously.


I did take your words for what they were - you wrote them off as dying in a few months otherwise! That's a cold thing to say and it deserves some ridicule.

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Original post by Eelco
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Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

4 billion people could suffer from water shortage if temperatures rise by 2C

sure, if you naively add all regions that might get less rainfall for a worst case scenario (all regions apply for that given our lacking knowledge on the subject) except that this is not possible if total rainfall is a zero sum or even positive sum game under higher temperatures. evaporated water has to come down somewhere sooner or later.

Our lack of knowledge on the subject? Says who?

we cant even say much about future global trends, let alone the details of specific regions. im not aware of any scientist that would dare claim with any certainty he knew how the climate of a specific region was going to evolve in the coming century. ALL regions could get drier, global warming or no.


You can't speak to what the actual level of knowledge on the subject is, can you? You're not aware of anything but that hasn't stopped you from making things up - and then refusing to back them up with supporting evidence.

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:

At any rate, this is all very off topic.

not at all. it ties in perfectly with the other topic of this double-thread aswell: vague doomsday scenarios arnt to be taken on face value.


Debunking the "by the numbers" article is off topic, but thanks for the opportunity to once again demonstrate that you are completely clueless about the various subjects that you talk about - malaria, desertification, climate change disruption...




Here's more on the pending economic collapse.

Top accountant says U.S. faces financial ruin

Quote:

The GAO's head warns that foreign borrowing and programs such as Medicare are leading to a financial disaster.
...
What they don't talk about is a dirty little secret everyone in Washington knows, or at least should. The vast majority of economists and budget analysts agree: The ship of state is on a disastrous course, and will founder on the reefs of economic disaster if nothing is done to correct it.

There's a good reason politicians don't like to talk about the nation's long-term fiscal prospects. The subject is short on political theatrics and long on complicated economics, scary graphs and very big numbers. It reveals serious problems and offers no easy solutions. Anybody who wanted to deal with it seriously would have to talk about raising taxes and cutting benefits, nasty nostrums that might doom any candidate who prescribed them.
...
To show that the looming fiscal crisis is not a partisan issue, he brings along economists and budget analysts from across the political spectrum. In Austin, he's accompanied by Diane Lim Rogers, a liberal economist from the Brookings Institution, and Alison Acosta Fraser, director of the Roe Institute for Economic Policy Studies at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank.

Their basic message is this: If the United States government conducts business as usual over the next few decades, a national debt that is already $8.5 trillion could reach $46 trillion or more, adjusted for inflation.

A hole that big could paralyze the U.S. economy; according to some projections, just the interest payments on a debt that big would be as much as all the taxes the government collects today.

And every year that nothing is done about it, Walker says, the problem grows by $2 trillion to $3 trillion.
...
More serious is the possibility that foreign lenders might lose their enthusiasm for lending money to the United States. Because treasury bills are sold at auction, that would mean paying higher interest rates in the future. And it wouldn't just be the government's problem. All interest rates would rise, making mortgages, car payments and student loans costlier, too.
...





[Edited by - LessBread on November 2, 2006 2:23:19 PM]
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
LessBread
LessBread
Dollar on path for a crisis (Nov 14, 2006)
Dollar lower on diversification concern (Nov 10, 2006)
Dollar Breakdown to Ignite Gold Market (November 17)

Quote:

...
After the turn of the millennium, the White House told us a strong dollar was in our best interest, but it was pretty obvious that they didn’t really mean it. The dollar index, which tracks the U.S currrency against a basket of its major trading partners, lost a third of its value from the February 2002 high (120.51) to the December 2004 low (80.39), but the government did nothing to fight it.
dollar ignite
...
Traditionally, the demise of the dollar is what sends investors scurrying for an asset class that will retain its value even in the face of rampant inflation. During the late 1970s and early 1980s, for example, rising oil prices sparked double-digit inflation in the U.S. The result was a flight to gold that ultimately pushed the price to a record high of $875 an ounce in January 1980...

The greenback rebounded in 2005, yet has resumed its downward slide so far in 2006 as the government continues to borrow — and print — money to pay for things like Hurricane Katrina relief and the Iraq war. Gold has not exactly traced the path of the dollar this year because widespread speculation has created a more volatile environment, but the links between the dollar, inflation and the shiny metal still apply.
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A number of countries, including Sweden, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, India and Russia have all announced intentions this year to diversify their reserves away from dollars. China’s reserves alone have topped $1 trillion, doubling from 2004! U.S. dollars are thought to account for over 70% of this amount.
...
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
LessBread
LessBread
Dollar Falls as Concerns Grow About Economy

Quote:

The dollar dropped sharply against a broad range of major currencies today, and the euro broke through the $1.30 mark for the first time in a year and a half, highlighting concern about the strength of the American economy.
...


Dollar Falls Against Major Currencies

Quote:

BERLIN -- The dollar dropped against other major currencies Friday and fell to a year-and-a-half low against the euro, weakened by expectations of higher European interest rates.

In late afternoon New York trading, the 12-nation euro bought $1.3079, up from $1.2941 late Thursday in New York. The euro hasn't traded above $1.30 since April 2005 and it briefly topped $1.31 in trading before easing back.

The dollar slipped against the Japanese currency, falling to 115.75 yen from 116.26 the day before, while the British pound rose to $1.9317 from $1.9156.
...
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
LessBread
LessBread
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
LessBread, you're right, it's the apacolypse. I ate my dog last week.


How did it taste?
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
The Alchemist
The Alchemist
woo thats gonna be my 2nd end of the world :)
hope it it happens unlike y2k
"Everything works out in the end, if it doesn't then it is not the end"

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