Original post by Scint About quest logs, which you say WoW dumbs down too much. It is common knowledge that many people in WoW don't even read the quest log text, just the objective, and ask for quest help in general chat when the answer is probably in the quest text. Moreover, if people don't know the exact location for a quest mob/item they look it up on thottbot. While I understand you want players to put more thought into quests, the reality is players just want to get the quest done as soon as possible for exp or rewards and don't care about story.
But isn't that because the quests are not compelling?
I'd say that's certainly a part of it, but I question whether it's possible to have the huge number of quests that an MMO does and have them all be deeply engaging, especially considering the "Standard MMO Plot Hole", which is that 100,000 people are doing / have already done all the quests you're doing, which forces everything to either be generic and repeatable, or forces the player to swallow the fact that the narrative, setting, and flow of time do not make any literary sense at all.
Let's face it. Everything has been down-hill since UO. 1998 was a great year to play MMO's
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Back in my day, we used to have to walk 20 miles uphill, both ways, in the snow, to complete a quest. And we didn't have minimaps, hell, we didn't even have a display. We had to just run our own database queries against the server to see where we were going. And not through the internet, no, we hand-delivered the punch cards each morning at sunrise. Of course, we did all this while standing in a pile of angry bees, which was the style at the time. You kids these days have it too easy.
Original post by makeshiftwings Back in my day, we used to have to walk 20 miles uphill, both ways, in the snow, to complete a quest. And we didn't have minimaps, hell, we didn't even have a display. We had to just run our own database queries against the server to see where we were going. And not through the internet, no, we hand-delivered the punch cards each morning at sunrise. Of course, we did all this while standing in a pile of angry bees, which was the style at the time. You kids these days have it too easy.
Amen! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it!
Original post by Scint About quest logs, which you say WoW dumbs down too much. It is common knowledge that many people in WoW don't even read the quest log text, just the objective, and ask for quest help in general chat when the answer is probably in the quest text. Moreover, if people don't know the exact location for a quest mob/item they look it up on thottbot. While I understand you want players to put more thought into quests, the reality is players just want to get the quest done as soon as possible for exp or rewards and don't care about story.
But isn't that because the quests are not compelling?
I'd say that's certainly a part of it, but I question whether it's possible to have the huge number of quests that an MMO does and have them all be deeply engaging, especially considering the "Standard MMO Plot Hole", which is that 100,000 people are doing / have already done all the quests you're doing, which forces everything to either be generic and repeatable, or forces the player to swallow the fact that the narrative, setting, and flow of time do not make any literary sense at all.
and now you get to the actual issue with modern MMO's. The avatars are persistent but the world's are not.
Compare UO, EQ1, and then WoW. The worlds are progressively less persistent, and i would argue progressively less compelling.
I have come to the decision that MMORPG's will start to lose volume over this very thing that has been detering me. First off, i must admit that i am in development of an indy mmorpg and im very business oriented and seeing that anarchy online is staying in business showed me that its not that hard to make it. Second, i have had high end characters in eq. I have not in eq2 and i will list the reasons next. Also i have not played WoW but its very sad that the way eq2 and WoW operate is so similiar. i dont know who copied who but there is so much similiarity in the 2 its sad. now lets get to the point, i almost dont wanna share this but i really dont wanna be MAKING a game because i cant find one that has what i want in it.
Starting cities If you say that you like EQ2 starting cities more than EQ1, you either... never made 2 characters, or never played a game that had different start cities. This is eq2's setup. Antonica or Commonlands, Thundering steppes or Nektulos forest, Enchanted Lands or Orcish Waste is that not the most boring choice ever. And if you chose good, or evil, ur prolly gonna only go to one of em. Ok so why is this lame cuz someone will say they like that system. ok every starting city in eq1 had its own zone to go to level. and in those zones some of em funneled as you progressed some didnt. there are literal not 3 small zones but prolly no less than 10 starting zones and at every point u had practically 10 places u could go. sure u started in a specific one. if you like to adventure then u wanna be able to tell ur friend lets go to this place. i remember looking online for places me and my friend, whos working with me on this project, could go in eq1 and it was always something new and fun.
Instancing This was a great idea. I really liked it in Lost Dungeons or wutever expansion that was. I hated it in eq2. Everything is instanced, its the extreme and its being over done. Im not even gone argue this cause Vanguard is not using any instancing and they are bringing the genre to where it should be in some light.
Tactics Im sorry but i must be the only one that misses the situation where player who could be more tactical were rewarded better. I dont want a button masher. I dont want a fighting game, because they get old fast... really fast. EQ1 - Kiting. Not so hard that the casual gamer couldnt pick it up, but perfect medium that he would prolly group instead of soloing this mob that was so much more difficult and you actually had to think to kill em. There were so many tactical situations that it really took a while to understand.
Lack of ambiguity in task/tradeskills I dont care if you got 10 kids 2 jobs and no car. If you got no time to be figuring out quest, y should you be rewarded just as much as some one who is willing to put that effort and intelligence into the game. If you are a casual player, u should have casual stuff. My question is if you can only play for an hour and you cant remember all that stuff that farmer johnson told you y should you be able to even complete the quest. In tradeskills its not fair that you should be able to produce rare items if you dont have to put some time into figuring out the recipes.
Level system is boring AA is about the only good thing going on right now. Y is AA so nice. Cuz its an oppurtunity to think. Y is there no planning involved. Anyone who says that a complex system will not last has not played EVE online. On the forums there are people plotting graphs of curves of best fit to try and approximate the games systems. EVE has its own issues with balance of new players with veterans but nonetheless it is success. I think EVE is overly complex but still, its making it. At least put some thought into leveling. Remember eq1 having to buy/quest for spells you didnt just automatically get them when u heard ding.
Items boring Items dont really seem to be that exciting in the new games anymore and i think its tied to the awful tactics and level system. I am 22 and my parents are both over 40. They both have eq2 accounts and everytime i talk to them they get more bored with it because its the same scenario over and over. When they show me their equipment ive noticed its more about what it looks like and less about what it does. My mother played eq and it used to be about the stats but less and less is that the situation.
Lack of dynamics There is not really a whole lot going on. Its just a bunch of monsters in a field and npc's that want you to perform quest. There is no cities laying siege to one another. Nothing going on at all.
Let me sum this up with something that a lot of people are not thinking about. Gen2 MMO's have picked up the largest game audience yet. But if they dont listen to the hardcores, eventually they will lose this market because people do not wanna do the same thing 10 times. Every time a new mmo comes out and they have to start at lvl 1 and go to 60 70 wutever, and there is the same reward, they will get tired of this. By gen3 or 4 we will see the market adapt and i dont think WoW 2 and WoW 3 or EQ3 or Vanguard or wutever it is at the time will be able to retain people to do the same grunt leveling only to be able to say they are Uber and participate in Uber groups. People like difference, people like culture. There is nothing exciting going on in these worlds and I intend to change it with my own Indie MMO.
Original post by Dreddnafious Maelstrom and now you get to the actual issue with modern MMO's. The avatars are persistent but the world's are not.
Compare UO, EQ1, and then WoW. The worlds are progressively less persistent, and i would argue progressively less compelling.
I think you might have some rose-tinted memories there. Actually, nothing at all ever happened in UO or EQ1 either. The only metaplot advancement came in the forms of separately sold expansions and the occasional patch, just like WoW.
