"Mind" of an Action Hero

I like this very much.
If the puzzles are related to the action, it could be really engaging.

Go for it!

I agree, this idea certainly has potential. The only thing I'd be worried about in this game is perhaps too much cutscene and not enough gameplay. A game like this might actually work well on the Wii, using the controller motions to choose the moves.

I also would think the idea might result in a game that focuses too much on cutscenes.

I was thinking the idea could also be applied with the interactive elements of a role playing game like Final Fantasy. This would allow the player to also choose their own path through the story, giving a reason for the player to play more than once. Still, I can't imagine one play through would last for too long, because it is supposed to represent a movie.

This is a game idea I would like to try further down the line, once I have more experience with scripting languages. I personally wouldn't mind someone else using it, because I don't really have the programming experience to implement it yet.

The difference between movies you described, and action scenes in this theoretical game, is that despite their canned appearance, they exist on a timeline sequence of events which rely on events previous in the timeline.

As an example, let's take your theoretical room-full of ninjas.

1) Ninjas jump out from nowhere (because that's what ninjas do!)
2) Game slows down
3) You select your sequence of events
4) You kill the first ninja
5) The ninja god summons his minions from the room. The ninjas proceed to jump out the window
6) You finish your sequence of attacks in an empty room. Glad no one was watching!

I guess my point is, realtime action can't really be planned in a sequence beforehand.

Neverwinter Nights had a system which sort of dealt with this... events are queue'd up in a list, and as time passes, the events execute. At any time, you can remove an event from the queue, thus canceling that action (e.g. in the event of the ninjas bailing out of the room as the aforementioned example).

Good idea, I think with some work it could really shine.

You make a very good point there.

Going back to the ninja example, if the hero pummels the first ninja, logically, the others aren't going to continue what they were doing before the hero attacked. They will react to what the hero just did.

One thing that could be done, perhaps, is break a fight scene into several smaller puzzles for each enemy. For instance, you create a plan that will defeat the first ninja, and get into a position to take on the next one. The ninja that is now closest will attack, and you'll have to make a plan to defeat that one. The difference here is that the enemy will actually be able to react and attack differently based on the hero's actions, but still retain the same puzzle gameplay.

I'd imagine the original idea would still work for situations like getting out of traps, or talking down guards, but the fight scenes would have to use a different system.

I think this idea is interesting and has potential. As you said in your last post, the puzzle could be broken into 'sub-puzzles' for each enemy.

Perhaps instead of a cut-and-dried one-V-one setup, perhaps the difficulty of the puzzle increases with the number of enemies attacking at or near the same time ( for instance, ninja 1's attack will land in 10 seconds, ninja 2's attack will land in 12 ); also, the difficulty of the puzzle could increase with the skill or weapons of the opponents.

In this way, the fighting puzzles can become more interesting and challenging as the game goes on. Also, perhaps, the amount of 'slowdown' could increase per difficulty increase. If a given situation can be classified as Y difficulty, then the scale of the slowdown effect could be some function f(Y).

The puzzle could therefore become very organic, assuming the AI adapts to your technique. The puzzle flows between changes as the enemies attack, withdrawl, and are defeated. It could move away from subpuzzles and be more like what I'd call a 'dynamic' or 'smart' puzzle.

I don't know, this might be difficult to implement, but it sounds interesting to me. What do you think? :)

That would be the best solution, I believe. Having a puzzle that changes dynamically, but still gives time to solve it, would be a very original concept. Like you said, it would be tough to implement, though.

What could happen is that after every attack, the layout of the strategic map would change, and a new timer would start counting down.

What thought that also comes to mind is having the puzzle portion represented as falling or incoming "blocks". Each block represents a new enemy action, and you have to build a plan to counter the current falling block. The next block, or enemy action, would be generated dynamically. In order to counter each coming enemy action, the player must build on top of the plan that they started with the last action.

This is just a rough idea though, and I don't have a good idea how it would work in an actual game.

In considering the falling block idea, I struggle to think of a way that you would map the falling blocks to what is happening on the screen. ( The thought of 'Matrix: Tetrolutions' keeps popping up, heh )

Perhaps a certain shape of block ( assuming you are using shapes and not just colors, or something entirely different, to differentiate the blocks ) means a certain type of attack, and... I keep thinking in terms of tetris style puzzle, which may not be what you're thinking.

Anyway, no direct, intuitive mappings from martial arts => falling blocks come to my mind at the moment. But I'd be certainly interested if you found a reasonable system!

I had thought that perhaps, you could seperate the puzzle into 'actions' of sorts. Defensive and offensive actions, that both you and your enemies employ. For example, say your heroes situation is this:

--------------NOTE: Summary given after overly-long-winded example-----------

1) Hero is surrounded by 4 ninjas.

2) There positioning relative to hero is this: Hero faces North, Ninja1 is North of hero, ninja2 is East, ninja3 is south, ninja4 is west.

3) Hero chooses martial stance option 2, which is a directionally balanced, defensively based stance.

4) Because hero chose martial stance option 2, he has blocking abilities from each of the 4 directions, but attacks are more limited. Let's say that he can attack N and E readily and quickly, while W and S require more time to get into an attacking position (directions chosen arbitrarily in this case)

5) Ninja2(@ East) uses a 'strong' overhead attack. Time slows down so the player can react.

6) Being in a defensive stance, hero has options of [ Dodge Blow using the 'strong momentum of the attack to the defenders advantage, 3 Blocking methods (blockA, blockB, blockC), or a quick attack to East( because this defensive position has an attack quick enough to beat his slower 'strong' attack for eastwardly opponents ) ]

7) Hero chooses blockB, whilst he transitions from defensive martial stance 2, to blockB, time returns to normal speed until ninja4(West) initiates an attack, time slows down again.

8) In slowmo, the player can see that the hero is blocking ninja2's attack. Because he chose 'blockB' he has a new set of tactical defensive and offensive movements, each movement of course leads to a new set of tactical movements.

9) Now hero must choose how to deal with Ninja4. Possibilities are numerous, perhaps he avoids it by pushing East with his block against ninja2, and is then able to attack ninja2 because he did not have to physically deal with ninja4 attack.

10) etc...

-------------------End long scenario----------------------

Summary:
* The player has actions such as: Stances, Attacks, Blocks, Dodges, and Movement
* Completing an action causes the players situational puzzle to be altered (hopefully to her advantage), with a unique subset of actions that was determined by her previous actions.
* Thus the puzzle comes in finding and using the the combination of 'actions' that leads to both 1] The survival of the hero, and 2] the elegant and efficient dispatch of heroes opponents.

Anyway, that's just an idea that sort of formed; it may deviate into more direct action, rather than the puzzle-like effect you were going for. I don't believe that is necessarily true, however, if handled in the right manner. If I've gone to far astray, I hope atleast to have given you something interesting to consider.

EDIT: after re-reading the original post, this sounds almost exactly like what you were saying, Oops! Heh.

Awesome idea.

I think as long as you keep things intuitive, you could really have something special here. Difficulty could scale upwards with more/better opponents, and how fast the action is moving.

One thing that always bothers me when people start talking about fight scenes or actual fighting is that most people are under the impression that the actual moves are changed mid execution. Some can be but for the most part, when a person throws a real punch that person is either swinging for a target or swinging for where that target will be moving to. Lighter maneuvers can be altered as you perform them but not the meaty blows that do the damage. Better fighters can react better then others but not by much. Remember, theres a lag time between your eyes and your hands that you can see in action when someone drops a piece of paper thru your hands as you try to catch it. It's unavoidable.

Having said that, I think your game would works splendidly and simply if you set up a simple routine for your NPCs to follow based on increments of time. lets say you have a 30 sec fight which is slowed down to something like 5 real seconds per "Fight second" Lets say the player is jumped by 2 ninja's. Lets break down this example down to rounds that represent 1 sec "5 real time sec"

Your scenario starts.
Round 1- Ninja A starts a punch to where the players head is currently, the player see's this coming and decides to duck below the punch
Round 2- Ninja B is suppose to kick towards the players head but since the player ducked in round one, that kick will now target the heads new location (or expected location), ninja A is suppose to follow up his first punch with a kick to the stomach but since the player ducked in round one, the ninja's target is now a little lower. The player stays low and dodges to the side and catches ninja B's face kick.
Round 3- The player lays a kick in the groin of ninja B as Ninja A's momentum from his missed kick in round 2 carries him forward. Ninja B jumps in teh air trying to get out of range of the groin kick but to no avail.
Round 4- Ninja B crumples on the ground, Ninja A does a sweep on the players legs, the players foot is still not planted from round 3's kick so that player takes the hit and falls down.

It sounds complicated, but all the game really is doing is altering the script each round to accommodate the new positions that were made in the previous round. Maybe have some breaks in the laid out scenario to react to things like knockdowns or injuries. Pauses that come with some animation of standing up before the attack sequence continues. Sounds like fun to me.

I think this game could have great flow and re playability value since every fight can be different. Adjust scores by how many blows the player dealt/received and how long it took to win. maybe add some flair points for use of a perfectly chosen reaction to teh situation. Maybe even let the player map out what hes going to do that round then watch what happens. Then when its all done let them watch a full speed replay of their fight. Let em save fight scenes to re watch. Sounds like one hell of a game to me.

Ok I really like this Idea. By the sound of it, I'd actually love to play it. Says enough I think. Now you only need to work out this potential idea!

Good luck!

-Stenny

Have you ever played Super Smash Brothers? This puzzle idea of yours sounds a lot like Smash when I play against more than one computer player. The mechanics of the fight are often a lot of dodging around my opponents until I can attack. The only difference seems to be that Smash is platform view and never slows down (except when you overload the processors).

A scenario could be:

Player is Link standing in the center of the stage with Yoshi and Ness to the left and Samus to the right.

1. Samus starts charging some sort of energy attack, but Link ignores that for now.
2. Yoshi jumps at Link to attack from above while Ness rushes Link from the ground.
3. Link uses his strong forward attack (a downward swing) to hit both of them at once.
4. Yoshi and Ness fall to the ground.
5. Samus shoots the energy attack.
6. Link jumps over that, letting Ness take the brunt of the attack.

End scenario

There are lots of other things that could happen, like grabbing a character and throwing him into others, or using him as a shield. You can also "pin" a character to one location by using a fast attack repeatedly-- the knockback is short enough that they can't move easily.


So to make your idea a good puzzle game, it would have to have a very complicated set of actions that take awhile to think through.

Quote:

Original post by Naxos 4) Because hero chose martial stance option 2, he has blocking abilities from each of the 4 directions, but attacks are more limited. Let's say that he can attack N and E readily and quickly, while W and S require more time to get into an attacking position (directions chosen arbitrarily in this case)

Assuming the hero is standing with his left foot forward, this is actually quite realistic.

Quote:

EDIT: after re-reading the original post, this sounds almost exactly like what you were saying, Oops! Heh.

You fleshed out the idea really well, though. It would require alot of thinking, because like you said, you would have to plan out your defense and attacks carefully, so that they can set up better actions in the future. Basically, you have to build off your past actions as the fight progresses.

This was why I considered a falling blocks game, because your building a "structure" of actions. But, I realize now that a strategic map would probably be better.

Quote:

Your scenario starts. Round 1- Ninja A starts a punch to where the players head is currently, the player see's this coming and decides to duck below the punch Round 2- Ninja B is suppose to kick towards the players head but since the player ducked in round one, that kick will now target the heads new location (or expected location), ninja A is suppose to follow up his first punch with a kick to the stomach but since the player ducked in round one, the ninja's target is now a little lower. The player stays low and dodges to the side and catches ninja B's face kick. Round 3- The player lays a kick in the groin of ninja B as Ninja A's momentum from his missed kick in round 2 carries him forward. Ninja B jumps in teh air trying to get out of range of the groin kick but to no avail. Round 4- Ninja B crumples on the ground, Ninja A does a sweep on the players legs, the players foot is still not planted from round 3's kick so that player takes the hit and falls down.

Exactly. The game would be strategic and give you time to think, but also dynamic depending on the player's actions. While a novice player would be able
to simply dispatch the ninjas, a really experienced player could pull off some really flashy moves.

One thing I was thinking about was the game's point system. I think it would be cool to have the game's points be the action movie's total box office gross. It starts at the same value at the beginning of the game, like $5,000,000. Depending on how well the player does in the game, it rises and falls. The player loses automatically if it reaches to 0 or below.

Quote:

So to make your idea a good puzzle game, it would have to have a very complicated set of actions that take awhile to think through.

Indeed, it would have to be. I'd imagine that I fight in this game, by half way through, would involve ten or more opponents, and having to dispatch all of them would be very tough.

I think the real puzzle wouldn't be in just defeating the enemies, but defeating them in a really flashy and cool way. For instance, two ninjas are attacking from the front and back at the same time, and a third ninja is on the side. You jump at the last second, and the two ninjas punch each other, and you use one of them as a platform to attack the third.

Do you have any particular set of physics in mind-- specifically a list of exactly what the characters can and can not do? Your idea seems a too nebulous and abstract to work with without one.

I think that this could work in the way that the original post describes - ninjas bailing out and all.

Let's say that the ninja's bail out and you still have a whole bunch of moves qued up to be performed on the empty room. Yes, it looks lame. However, as looking cool is one of the goals in this game, a failure to look cool (tracked by seeing how far you miss by, perhaps) could mean that you lose points.

Thus if you load up on a whole heap of actions during the initial slowdown you run the risk of looking like a tool. On the other hand, if you load up on a whole heap of actions and it works, you should get ultra-mega bonuses. So if you gamble on being able to take out all the ninjas in a long set of ultra complex awesome moves - you'd better hope that they stick around for it :)

welll i dont realy like this idea all too much because

There is no real way to stop yourself from getting hurt or dying. If you predetermin the attacks it seems more like a chance game other than puzzle. How would you carry out boss fights? How do you know what your enemy is capable and how do you know when your enemy is going to attack. You might say block but what if your enemy attacks 3 seconds latter than when your block occured. I Personaly think that a game could be carried out like this but think it would be better if it included more realtime than this.

I'll admit the idea is very abstract as of yet, because it was just something I wanted to throw out there. I'm not sure yet what the player's move set would be, but such a list would include a reasonable amount of actions. It wouldn't be that good of an idea to provide to many actions, because the player would be overwhelmed with what to pick.

I don't see the game as being that much about chance, as the enemy's actions are pretty much laid out for you. It wouldn't really be about whether you are able to dodge the attacks, that in itself should be pretty easy. However, dodging the attack and following up with a wicked counterattack that dispatches the ninjas easily will be quite difficult.

I really like this idea. If you end up working on this, please keep us posted. It has potential.

Observe and learn.

I like this idea--if you could come up with a system for it for battles longer than ten seconds, I wouldn't mind seeing it.

Or you could split up large battles into smaller increments.

I suggest looking in various katas by various martial arts. Some involve more than one person.

If you need further inspiration, look at the movie "Equilibrium". I love the concept of "Gun Katas."