I realize that demos are an important part of the job application (I'm talking mainly about programming positions) but how "good" do your demos need to be? Is just showing you've mastered some standard techniques and can assemble them into a game sufficient? Or is the ticket in to come up with something really jaw dropping that gives professional technology a run for its money? I worry about this because it seems like a lot of people on these boards are working on some pretty high caliber stuff and it doesn't seem like they all have jobs in the industry. Is it that a lot of people aren't interested in game programming professionally or is the competition just that tough? Because if the people on the projects I've been seeing can't get hired I can't imagine I'll have much of a chance for a long time.

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I realize that demos are an important part of the job application (I'm talking mainly about programming positions) but how "good" do your demos need to be? Is just showing you've mastered some standard techniques and can assemble them into a game sufficient? Or is the ticket in to come up with something really jaw dropping that gives professional technology a run for its money?

Depends on the company and on the rest of your resume.

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I worry about this because it seems like a lot of people on these boards are working on some pretty high caliber stuff and it doesn't seem like they all have jobs in the industry. Is it that a lot of people aren't interested in game programming professionally or is the competition just that tough? Because if the people on the projects I've been seeing can't get hired I can't imagine I'll have much of a chance for a long time.

It's not really any more difficult to get a job in games as it is anywhere else. What you seem to be overlooking is that the ability to produce demos like you've described aren't all that matters in terms of employability.

If you can write code and/or produce pictures, you have the minimum qualifications. There's a lot more involved.

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Original post by jpetrie If you can write code and/or produce pictures, you have the minimum qualifications. There's a lot more involved.

and what might some of these be?

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Original post by My_Mind_Is_Going I realize that demos are an important part of the job application (I'm talking mainly about programming positions) but how "good" do your demos need to be? Is just showing you've mastered some standard techniques and can assemble them into a game sufficient? Or is the ticket in to come up with something really jaw dropping that gives professional technology a run for its money?

Sorry if the answer comes across as negative. It isn't meant to be but I'm afraid your question is broken on so many different levels.
First it translates to "How little work can I get away with to get a job?" - The only viable answer is that you can do as little as you want provided you accept that your effort or lack of will impact on your ability to get a job.
Second answer - it has to be better than any other demo that someone competing for the same jobs as you submits - of course you can't know how good they will be and may not be capable of doing better work so this answer is meaningless (actually it's the question that is meaningless).
Third - What is your definition of good? There is no such thing as a perfect game or perfect code. Even great games are hated by some people, it is all subjective. One person may think your code is great while another thinks you took the wrong approach. In other words there is no valid measure of good in such cases.


Fourth - The only meaningful answer is that your demo needs to show what you are attempting to show to the very best of your abilities, within the limitations imposed by resources such as time or finance.

If you want to be a gameplay programmer make something that shows good game play and do as much work as is necessary to make it working and polished. Likewise if you want to focus on physics do a physics demo. Do the best demo you can because that's supposed to be why you want to be a games programmer - to make the best code you can.

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I worry about this because it seems like a lot of people on these boards are working on some pretty high caliber stuff and it doesn't seem like they all have jobs in the industry. Is it that a lot of people aren't interested in game programming professionally or is the competition just that tough? Because if the people on the projects I've been seeing can't get hired I can't imagine I'll have much of a chance for a long time.

Some people here aren't looking to work in big companies (some want to be indie game makers) and some are. There are many reasons why people who do want jobs don't have them (such as location, education etc). Having a good demo isn't the only issue. If you are worried about the quality of you work post a link and ask for feedback.

Good luck

My concern is really that I can spend 3 months working on demos, 6 months, or 6 years. I assume it's about demonstrating your abilities but obviously the more time you put in, presumably the better the finished product will be, but in the end you're just adding features but not upping the "difficulty" level of what you've made. If I sound like I'm in a rush it's not about not wanting to take the time, it's about needing a job. I'm out of school already and I'd rather not work at Starbucks for 2 years while I build my demos if I can do it in less time.

I guess a specific question I have though is whether it is more important to focus tightly on one area (like graphics, AI, physics) than on creating a well rounded game that maybe isn't particularly bleeding edge in any one area. For example, my degree in is physics so I'm pretty comfortable with the more mathematical topics (rendering, collisions, etc) but understanding OOP was a big revelation for me and I feel like I've gained a lot more by trying to make a fully functional (but again not bleeding edge) game than I would have by applying all the latest graphical effects to a tech demo.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

It would be better to get a development job for business software and keep applying for gamedev jobs then it would be spending time at starbucks and just working on demos at home. There is no substitute to being in a real software shop.

If you've just left school, then your education only opens doors for a short amount of time before experience counts more. Gaps of more then a few months won't look good on your cv/resume.

Investigate a company you would really want to work for right now with the skills you have and whatever you've got to show now, and try.

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A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week. George S. Patton US general (1885 - 1945)

Depends which area of programming you want to be in. Your lead demo piece should reflect your favoured/preferred area. My portfolio and CV (minus the softography) was able to get me to interviews, obtaining the job was down to the interview and how I came across in it.

I have seen portfolios worse and better do exactly the same.

As Obscure said, make the demo as best as you can as there will be other factors that may hinder or help you that you cannot directly control. These include companies' head count, time of year, project stage life-cycle or even what mood HR are feeling during the day.

The prospects of getting into business software look even worse at the moment since I don't know (and honestly have no interest in knowing) all the current database and web technology. At least in game development it seems like my raw math background will serve me better but then there seems to be so much more competition there. Not having a computer science degree people act like you have the plague.

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Original post by My_Mind_Is_Going The prospects of getting into business software look even worse at the moment since I don't know (and honestly have no interest in knowing) all the current database and web technology. At least in game development it seems like my raw math background will serve me better but then there seems to be so much more competition there. Not having a computer science degree people act like you have the plague.

You don't have a degree at all?

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Original post by yaustar You don't have a degree at all?

He presumably has a degree, just not a CS one. Which is fine, provided you have ample code and hobby projects do demonstrate both your ability and your passion.

Perhaps a personal anecdote would help:

I graduated with a neurobiology degree and a single CS course on my resume.

Got a job in dotcom doing HTML/JSP/Java. got bored. wanted to transition to games because it seemed challenging and cool.

I spent a full year more at the dotcom while spending a couple hours a night programming on a hobby 3D game engine and playing as many games as I could get my hands on. I was, at the same time, in and out of a couple separate projects with friends.

I then quit the dotcom & moved to LA and spent 6months full-time working on more engine and AI demos. Pretty much just following and implementing my interests and burning my savings.

Of the 30 or so resumes I sent out starting at the beginning of that 6mo period, I got one single response for an interview which i then got. Interestingly it was the 3rd time I had sent that company a resume.

So take whatever moral you want.

At the end of the day, smart companies are looking for smart passionate people. One of the hallmarks of the smart and the passionate is that they are always learning and always playing around with things outside of their official job. My favorite interview question (stolen from the guy who gave me the job): "What is your current favorite hobby project".

If you can pass the standard logic puzzles and syntax tests, that's the low bar. Beyond that you'll rarely get the job unless you can demonstrate a passion beyond mere ability.

-me