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2 proposed policy changes - feedback wanted

Started by jbadams Mar 19, 2008 at 10:02 AM 104 replies 22.2k views

Original Post

Mar 19, 2008 at 10:02 AM

As of Friday March 28 this year (my time, GMT+10) I'm going to be enacting some new policies in the Help Wanted forum on a trial basis in the hopes of improving the signal/noise ratio in the forum and overall quality of threads. The proposed changes are outlined below and any feedback would be appreciated - please be specific about which of the policies you're refering to when leaving feedback, I've numbered each change to make this convenient. 1. Posts not using the mandatory template will be removed from the forum. Rather than simply warning users in-thread that they must edit their post and closing those that fail to comply I will be deleting the threads outright. The user in question will recieve a PM containing an explanation, a link to the template and FAQ (which is being revised), and the text of their original post should they wish to reuse some of it. MMO projects not correctly tagged with "[MMO]" in the title will be treated as unformatted. 2. Posts for projects blatantly and knowingly violating the IP of another company or individual will be closed. Obviously we are not able to enforce the intellectual property rights of other individuals and/or entities with 100% effectiveness and may at times miss the occasional project where we are unfamiliar with the IP in question, but it is my belief that closure of those threads that obviously violate IP rights will lead to an improvement in the overall quality of available projects as well as reducing the clutter of impractical threads. Users making such posts will be allowed to repost after either demonstrating permission to use the IP in question to my satisfaction or re-branding their project to be legal. The revised FAQ will contain an expanded section on IP laws with a selection of appropriate links for further reading.

Daaark

Mar 19, 2008 at 10:10 AM

Since the forum is custom, why not fill out the form to make the first post?

jbadams

Mar 19, 2008 at 10:31 AM

Quote:
Original post by Vampyre_Dark
Since the forum is custom, why not fill out the form to make the first post?

This functionality would be an excellent improvement, but unfortunately the site development team have a lot of higher priorities right now, to which end I am focussing on changes I can enact without software support beyond that already offered by the current state of the forums.

Ultimately, Help Wanted would be much better off as a taggable and searchable classified system rather than a forum.

Quote:
Original post by zebeste
Number two, I also agree with, except that sometimes people just don't realize that they can't copy others IP rights, so how specifically will those be dealt with?

The revised FAQ I'm currently working on (you'll get to see it next week) includes an expanded section on IP issues along with links for further reading, and such users will be pointed towards this resource and encouraged to re-design their project to use original IP or to seek the permission of copyright/trademark owners.

Promit

Mar 19, 2008 at 10:33 AM

I absolutely agree on both counts.

Quote:
Original post by zebeste
sometimes people just don't realize that they can't copy others IP rights, so how specifically will those be dealt with?

We'll tell them, once. (Probably via tsloper's excellent writing.) After that, they can get a clue or get lost.

mvBarracuda

Mar 19, 2008 at 10:38 AM

Both changes sound good to me :-)

A slightly related question: are the any plans to sticky promising looking projects on a regular basis again?

Daaark

Mar 19, 2008 at 10:41 AM

Quote:
Original post by jbadams
Quote:
Original post by Vampyre_Dark
Since the forum is custom, why not fill out the form to make the first post?
This functionality would be an excellent improvement, but unfortunately the site development team have a lot of higher priorities right now, to which end I am focussing on changes I can enact without software support beyond that already offered by the current state of the forums.

Understandable. I think we might have discussed this a few weeks ago.

I think deleting the threads is excellent, and I recommended it awhile ago in some thread where that was happening. They are wastes of time and space.

Why not add something to the template form that says, "by posting this thread, you agree that your project is not infringing on any IP, and that the thread will be deleted without warning if it is believed that it does' (in better writing of course). That might filter out a few more threads when people miss the stickies.

jbadams

Mar 19, 2008 at 10:46 AM

Quote:
Original post by mvBarracuda
A slightly related question: are the any plans to sticky promising looking projects on a regular basis again?

Yes. I'm also going to start a regular (starting out as monthly, we'll see how it goes from there) news item for what I consider to be some of the best Help Wanted items to get a bit of attention from the front page; just a brief outline and link to each similar to what Drew has done for the developer journals.

linternet

Mar 19, 2008 at 11:28 AM

I agree completely on the first policy change.

The second I'm not so sure of because I believe there are companies (though probably not many) who welcome fan projects but cannot, for various legal reasons, officially condone them.

Also there are cases ( Kings Quest Inspired Game ) where games that have started off violating copyright (the example I gave even got a cease and desist order) have later been granted permission, but only after after showing progress.

I have (and will continue) to strongly advocate against projects that violate copyright and anybody starting such a project, or joining one, should be aware of the risks, but I'm not sure blanket deletion is warranted.

trojanman

Mar 19, 2008 at 11:39 AM

I absolutely agree on both accounts. Well done jbadams.

Quote:
Original post by linternet
The second I'm not so sure of because I believe there are companies (though probably not many) who welcome fan projects but cannot, for various legal reasons, officially condone them.

Also there are cases ( Kings Quest Inspired Game ) where games that have started off violating copyright (the example I gave even got a cease and desist order) have later been granted permission, but only after after showing progress.

I have (and will continue) to strongly advocate against projects that violate copyright and anybody starting such a project, or joining one, should be aware of the risks, but I'm not sure blanket deletion is warranted.

Which is why they should be either 1) pointed immediately to Tom Sloper's writing on the subject OR 2) be forced to figure out their IP issues prior to posting. IP infringement is a big issue and unless you have prior knowledge and approval from the IP holder you are simply wasting everyone's time. It is perfectly acceptable to have permission granted, and as indie developers who are interested in making an IP related product, they should take the time and the effort FIRST before making any additional attempt to find help.

Wan

Mar 19, 2008 at 11:44 AM

Quote:
Original post by linternet
The second I'm not so sure of because I believe there are companies (though probably not many) who welcome fan projects but cannot, for various legal reasons, officially condone them.

It still violates copyright, and in my opinion GameDev shouldn't facilitate illegal activities. If they cannot officially state it, then that's their problem.

Quote:
Also there are cases ( Kings Quest Inspired Game ) where games that have started off violating copyright (the example I gave even got a cease and desist order) have later been granted permission, but only after after showing progress.

It initially violated copyright, so it shouldn't be here. If for some reason they get permission later on, they can always post again. These are rare cases anyway, I assume.

Anyway, I agree with the entire proposal.

ChopperDave

Mar 19, 2008 at 12:03 PM

In regards to the first policy, may I suggest that people who join Gamedev.net cannot make a Help Wanted post during their first week of membership? I've noticed that many people sign up and then post the same day, which leads me to believe they didn't take time to read through existing recruitment posts to see how they should be worded and formatted. I think telling them to wait a week will give them time to read over those posts so their first one is an effective one.

Boder

Mar 19, 2008 at 12:51 PM

I think I agree with both, but I don't think projects should be taking down for being in the early stages and using "place-art" sprites or music that are copyrighted.

I also think bumping rules should be enforced and the "shameless bump" time period moved from 2 days to 5 days.

Furthermore, I would suggest that when discussion goes beyond the topic of the project advertised, a moderator tells them to start a new thread out of help wanted. These discussions keep crappy projects afloat on the front page for no other reason than being crappy.

Lastly, I think MMO requests should have stricter requirements. If a demo or in-game screenshots are not available, then the poster should have to provide examples of past work.

acidwillburnyou

Mar 19, 2008 at 2:27 PM

Quote:
Original post by Promit
I absolutely agree on both counts.

What he said ^

bobNinjaPenguin

Mar 19, 2008 at 3:19 PM

Going to try and post this again as it appears my earlier post did not go through.

I believe a sticky thread of active projects maintained by a moderator or high up community member.

This sticky thread would contain a list of active projects. Not only would it act as a method for dev teams to secure a presence. It also allows developers looking to join teams research a projects themselves and pick projects based on what they see.

Obviously some form of criteria needs to be in place:

Project Name :
Website :
Contact :
Status :

Would suffice and give enough of a presence for people to follow through if they think the project is something they want to get involved with. Obviously only active projects should be in the thread, and only projects that have made progress. This would eliminate all those projects that post and never materialize.

I also think that by having such a thread it would reduce the shameless bumps, cut down on regular posting from alot of teams.

Given that you would be heavily moderating the Help Wanted Forums this thread would not add too much more to the workload.

PaulOtt

Mar 19, 2008 at 4:24 PM

The proposed changes sound fine to me. I could probably make a form for you to drop into the post.asp page. Would take a few days--might take up to a week to fit in my schedule. Maybe we could work out some kind of GDNet subscription/promotion as payment. ;)

Also, I think the stigma attached to MMO development on these forums is outdated. There's an growing number of tools that increasingly allow people to fail at making MMOs, just like people fail at making 2d single player games. Multiverse is one example, and Metaplace looks to be an easily accessible MMO development tool currently being made by Raph Koster and friends.

[Edited by - PaulOtt on March 19, 2008 9:24:48 PM]

nsmadsen

Mar 19, 2008 at 4:55 PM

Quote:
Original post by jbadams
1. Posts not using the mandatory template will be removed from the forum.
Rather than simply warning users in-thread that they must edit their post and closing those that fail to comply I will be deleting the threads outright. The user in question will recieve a PM containing an explanation, a link to the template and FAQ (which is being revised), and the text of their original post should they wish to reuse some of it. MMO projects not correctly tagged with "[MMO]" in the title will be treated as unformatted.

Completely agree. A more harsh, immediate policy will help clean up the forum. For those that simply do not know about the template (and do not take the time to read up on the forum's policies before posting) this will get them to pay closer attention for the next time they post. I can see it now: "What!? My post got deleted!" Then they read the PM and everything makes sense.

Quote:
Original post by jbadams
2. Posts for projects blatantly and knowingly violating the IP of another company or individual will be closed.
Obviously we are not able to enforce the intellectual property rights of other individuals and/or entities with 100% effectiveness and may at times miss the occasional project where we are unfamiliar with the IP in question, but it is my belief that closure of those threads that obviously violate IP rights will lead to an improvement in the overall quality of available projects as well as reducing the clutter of impractical threads.

Completely agree. I have no problem helping educate and guide others regarding IP but have little to no patience for those users that blatantly disregard copyright. Those kinds of users do very little to lift up indie game development and this website. (Thinking of Brad Johnson here) I think both actions will greatly help with cleaning up and promoting professional attitudes and approaches to game development. Let me know how I can help out.

Great ideas!

Nathan

Trapper Zoid

Mar 19, 2008 at 5:22 PM

I agree with both of those - the positives will outweigh the negatives in both cases.

For the first, the only negative I can see is to dissuade newbies to the forum who haven't gotten used to the forum - they might feel that deleting their post is a bit overly harsh and also mightn't have gotten used to the PM system. However, it is their fault for not reading the forum FAQ (which you really should do before posting on a new forum) and it saves people from making all the kinds of queries that the template was meant to answer in the first place.

The second I also agree with, as I don't like projects with blatant IP violations hogging the top spots in the help forum due to all the debate that goes on in them. There are a scant few cases where I think a gentle nudge away from IP issues is better - if say someone was making a platformer as a learning exercise and is only using Mario sprites as placeholders (they're here to look for pixel artists to solve that problem) - but for the majority of cases closing seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Jaap1978

Mar 19, 2008 at 5:41 PM

Good points and I agree on both of them.

For point 1: I think when joining such a large community one should always read the stickies and do some research before spamming a template or post.
If for example in all enthousiasm a person forgets to read it I think the PM system is very reasonable and if it is a mature person he/she would for sure understand it.

Point 2: Very good point. It can give a community a bad name if violating an IP is more or less allowed. Requiring proof is certainly a good idea.
I remember some posts about a guy willingly ignoring Blizzard and wanting to create a private server and game. Also the whole Brad Johnson thing was a good example of how it not should be done. This sort of actions could harm us all and to require proof is the least that can be asked. Heck if I got the legal rights to work on a fanbased project I would be more then happy to spam the proof it all over :)

Mike.Popoloski

Mar 19, 2008 at 8:48 PM

Wholeheartedly agree on both accounts. The first issue, in particular, is helpful for people looking to weed out useless posts. The emphasis on having the MMO tag in the title is AWESOME, since it gives us a way to easily filter all of the crap that comes along with them.

Hodgman

Mar 19, 2008 at 10:00 PM

I don't agree with #2 (seems I'm the only one.)

I actually woke up this-morning planning on making a post suggesting we go softer on copyright-infringing fan projects (but I guess there's no point now!).

Sure it's bad to condone illegal activity (such as infringement), but developing such a game is not illegal, only distributing it is - so helping people gain development teams is not actually condoning illegal activities.

Usually these projects aren't in any way damaging to the owner of the IP, and they're often very appreciated by the fans of the IP. Personally I put them in the same category as fan-fiction, which is usually tolerated.
As long as the developers/poster are aware that they can be slapped with a C&D notice, I feel we should leave the legal ramifications up to them, and let them get on with being creative (i.e. not have the same "you're evil" debate everyone someone posts one of these projects).

But that's just me, feel free to disagree ;)

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