Why do I find most games tedious?

I think it's just the way the game industry is going. Games are becoming more and more expensive and longer and longer to make, so they REALLY play it safe these days, aka clones.

I really think the indie devs are going to be what keeps pushing the industry forward, and with things like Steam and PA digital distribution system, It just gives the indie games more power.

But there is always exceptions, companies like Blizzard, whom can create any game they wish with millions of dollars of funding.

But really what I'm predicting is sorta a merge between indie dev's and commercial games. Indie teams will become bigger, and commercial teams will start to downsize.

But with all predictions, you never know, time will tell. IMO the indie model is far better for game development then doing it commercially.

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Original post by JimDaniel Where is our Shakespeare or our Tolstoy?

within a deep forest
dwarf fortress
cave story

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Original post by Kaze Quote: Original post by JimDaniel Where is our Shakespeare or our Tolstoy? within a deep forest dwarf fortress cave story

Those are fantastic games, but in no way would I say that Cave Story is our "Shakespeare"... it's a quality game made with lots of love, but in no way are you "changed as a human being" after playing it.

Portal probably is the best example, though Braid (coming to XBLA soon) is amazing... possibly even more mind-blowing than Portal is. After beating Braid, you are changed, and you will never look at games the same way again. [smile] (I will say no more, lest the spoilers ruin the fun)

Passage is pretty different.

The problem is that the most popular games are those that sell well, but they're not necessarily the ones that have the best value for an experienced player. Most of the big companies gear everything they do towards the shareholders rather than the players. That means create something you know will work, rather than trying for something risky.

But it doesn't mean good games aren't coming out. If you dig deep enough, you'll find them. Just don't look for a life changing experience from the likes of EA, Nintendo or Ubisoft... Their games are extremely popular, sell like hotcakes... But they're really shit (very objective, unbiased statement, I know).

Anyway, we are the future, as they say. The 21st century kids who have real passion will come to replace the old rich dudes who just see sales and statistics. Hopefully, this is just a stale period that will go away.

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Those are fantastic games, but in no way would I say that Cave Story is our "Shakespeare"... it's a quality game made with lots of love, but in no way are you "changed as a human being" after playing it.

That's why he linked other games as well. I would say that Dwarf Fortress really does fit that bill: it is a game of staggering (and always expanding) scope and depth.

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Posted by JimDaniel Why do I find most games tedious? ... Where is our Shakespeare or our Tolstoy? ... Those masters of other artforms, they produced works that when you experience them you are changed as a human being. Where is that in games?

Why do you find most games tedious? The answer is simple: you don't really like games, much as I don't really like static artworks.

Experiencing the works of Shakespeare in no way changed me as a human being. The number of games that had a greater effect on me are countless.

You "feel like something needs to be happening in game design that isn't", but you can't name it because it isn't there. Portal is a common UI exploiting a single, previously under-used mechanic. If one only played games in the 3D human avatar genre, then maybe for them it really is "hope for the future", but taken as a whole, gaming is richer than it has ever been before.

Dwarf Fortress has been mentioned, and with good cause. Immortal Defense is also a beautiful game in its own way. Game developers *create worlds* (not just Origin), and exploring a world is a lot different to following a story. Both are interesting in their own ways, and if books are more compelling to you, then you should read more and play games less.

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Original post by JimDaniel Is this happening to you too?

Nope.

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Original post by Argus2 Why do you find most games tedious? The answer is simple: you don't really like games, much as I don't really like static artworks.

I have to disagree with this. Take me for example - I love novels. I adore novels. So much so that I spent 4 years studying English and would have been happy to go on to grad school if I could have found one which had more than one measly course in my area of interest. In particular my genres are science fiction, fantasy, and romance. Now, ask me if I am excited about any books due to come out this year. [sad] I still read, but nowhere near as much as I used to, simply because I've read so many novels that new ones tend to seem no different from the ones I've already read. And from my broad experience I can imagine which elements an author could pick and choose to create a novel I'd love to read, but 'books perfect for sunandshadow' is such a small niche that its unlikely any particular author would be interested in writing them, and if one did get written its unlikely that it would be published (at least in paper format, yay ebooks and online fiction archives).

Now considering that a novel can be written by a single person in a year or two, that person need only have talent with the single medium of words (compared to programming, art, music...), many many more novels than games are published each year, not to mention the continuing limitations of AI and other technology, and the barrier of the investment in purchasing software and hardware, and the targeting of the average game a younger audiences, I don't find it surprising at all that an experienced gamer would be bored by the majority of the games published each year.

Most game set out to be entertainment pure and simple. They're the equivalent of vaudeville, or summer blockbuster films for a more modern example. While it can be argued that Shakespeare is essentially in the same field, that of entertainment, it's hard to make the comparison; plays are an extremely old medium, and the Bard's got a few hundred years to give his work classic credibility.

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Portal is the only game in recent memory that's given me some hope of the future. And whenever I read other people's reactions to that game, I hear the same subtext, "Finally, somebody's moving in the right direction!"

I'm having trouble replying to your post because you haven't stated exactly what it is that you're looking for in games. You say that Portal is the way we should go in the future, but you don't mention why, or what it is about Portal that gives you hope.

Bear in mind that games encompasses a very large range, from the brand new blockbuster titles in your local game store, indie game distributed online, Flash games, cell phone games, and more. There's interesting development in all of these if you dig around.

Hearing the immortal words of Capt. MacMillan has changed my life forever. ;)

As much as I disagree that Shakespeare was, in any real way, exceptional, I understand the point you're trying to make. I would love to see bold, life-changing narratives in a game, but I think the medium itself works against such an achievement. Games enable players to create their own character, and superimpose their own beliefs and fantasies onto the protagonist. People tend to remain themselves, even if a different part of themselves than they usually show. Novels and films, however, force players to consider a different perspective.

While it is not impossible for games to have the same effect, it is more challenging. When forcing decisions and perspectives on the player, you must be careful as the player tends to have a closed mind to such things. I do believe some games are beginning to attempt to do so though.

In terms of game-play, it's definitely the indie developers who are making the biggest contributions toward innovation. Games like Portal (or rather, Narbacular Drop) and Within a Deep Forest present their own unique mechanics. Do game-play mechanics ever really constitute something comparable to the great authors and directors of times past though? I don't think so.

It is the narrative, and the imbued philosophies, perspectives and messages that truly makes a literary or artistic work stand out as an immortal and humanity altering work. Games are still growing into a level of maturity where these issues are explored. I do think people are starting to try though. A good example, I think, is Bioshock. While the game-play of Bioshock is not particularly innovative, the story and the imbued philosophical and moral considerations are exemplary. The mood is thick, and players are constantly aware of the fall of man. I think this may be a sign of greater things to come.

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Original post by Vampyre_Dark Quote: Original post by JimDaniel Is this happening to you too? Nope.

Lol! I haven't laughed at a forum post for quite some time, thankyou JimDaniel.

In reply to the main post, I think that you are right in there are hundreds of clone games for the aforementioned cost related reasons. People expect HD graphics, so the focus goes there, thus raising prices, thus increasing the risk, mean people want to do safe stuff. However, I read reviews before buying any game so that I know that the game I am buying won't be one of them. I know what games I like, and I know what I don't. I get a tingle every time I play (incoming flaming detected) The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. I can't get enough of Civ 4, even thinking about how the Wiimote should be used is enough. Gaming is my passion, so I guess I am more easily entertained than you, but, to be fair, you are posting on GameDev.

Oh and the solution is XBLA, PSN, Steam WiiWare etc. Lower costs means less risk means more risky designs.

I think its most of them arent doing what their supposed to be doing. They dont play to the strengths of games.

We have lots of games which are emulating movies, they do it to the letter, completely linear and forget to give the player a part. The closest game I've played which is really like being in a movie was Vampire the Masquerade.

Quite a lot of games seem to be forgetting the fun element and why the player is playing the game.

I played Prey recently whilst its an interesting game with all the topsy turvy stuff. The story and the characters were ill thought out, theirs basically no challenge, you cannot lose. Even the portals gravity stuff got tedious in the end. I completed it in the end but what for, it wasnt fun and I gained nothing.

Most games seem to be dissapearing up their own arse, I just want a fun game I can play for 20 minutes messing about with the gameplay.

Also games arent where I thought they would be when I was younger. I thought I would be able to play as say a marine in the movie Aliens. Of course shoot and kill the Aliens but also in those quiet scenes play them differently with foresight or just experiment. Say refuse to venture into the Aliens nest or, board up the ceilings and floors. But we are still stuck with crappy cut scenes and quick time events.

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Original post by CalabiMost games seem to be dissapearing up their own arse, I just want a fun game I can play for 20 minutes messing about with the gameplay.

Done that with Portal, Bioshock, and Assassin's Creed. Blockbusters are not that bad.

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Done that with Portal, Bioshock, and Assassin's Creed. Blockbusters are not that bad.

I'm not saying their bad, their just not enough. With the exception of portal, those games take themselves way too seriously. The high point of games now is a game, with a story where they hack in some wierd cliche sci fi nonsense(cause sci fi is cool man!, that story is surely insulting to its audience). Assasins Creed is a perfect example, this huge beautiful city, but dont you dare do anthing untoward or outside what the designers allow.

Bioshock appears to be not much more than system shock with a good bad choice. They remind me of fools gold, shiny and promising, but in the end, has no substance and is worth nothing.

if you're looking for a game to change your life, then I think you're in some very deep trouble. You should consider selling all your things and moving to South America and try to find some real adventure.

Seriously though, if you're playing games so much that you're finding it increasingly difficult to find satisfaction while playing then maybe you just need to stop playing games.

Fact is, the selection of games has never been more diverse. There are more really really good games around now than ever before. Maybe you don't want to have anything to do with them? The one thing the mega budget titles have done that has hurt independent developers is to build an illusion of illegitimacy of low budget games. Inexpensive games are crap. Buy our $50.00-$60.00 game that has 12 hours of game play and looks and sounds fantastic and you'll be getting your money's worth.

Usually not true.

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Original post by Hypnotron if you're looking for a game to change your life, then I think you're in some very deep trouble. You should consider selling all your things and moving to South America and try to find some real adventure.

No. This is exactly what we all should be looking for in games.

Let me clarify something. I don't mean that we should stop making Tetris, Super Mario Brothers, Gran Turismo, Doom or any of these types of experiences. These are video games and they're great at what they do. Unlike another poster said, I do like games.

But there is a new kind of experience emerging from the same landscape as video games, a new mode of expression for artists. I feel there is this great potential waiting to be unearthed but that none of these developers have the guts to push the boundaries, so it remains hidden.

Furthermore, I think people want this change. They desire an experience like they've never had before in a game, something they sense this medium can provide and yet the newest Doom game does not approach. This is the boredom I am referring to in my original post - the tedium of waiting for some designer/developer to break through and give us our War and Peace or our Hamlet.

What exactly do I mean by our War and Peace or our Hamlet? I mean simply a work that when you experience it you are not the same person as before. That is how all art works, by raising our consciousness, by challenging us to look at the world in a new way. This is what I want.


Also, re: your quote - I worked on supply boats in the Gulf of Mexico in my twenties, I've had enough "real adventure" for awhile...

Thanks for all the links to indie games, I'll check them out!

To expect games to change our lives is, perhaps, a slight over-extension. I think it would be nice if, in the near future, more games came out that challenged the way we think and the way we see things. I think we'll see this more often as the industry matures, and the market develops for such games.

I have a few ideas I want to explore already up my sleeve, but for now I don't have the means to produce them. I consider myself someone who enjoys an intellectual challenge and a well written book, as well as a good debate. So these are the sort of games I think I'd enjoy to play and produce. Be patient, these games will come.

In the mean time, I suggest we all enjoy re-telling the stories of how we back-hand slapped that Templar into a lake...