An Ethical Dilemma

I am getting a bit underpaid for my position as well, so I can relate a bit. I think you're right in not falsifying your resume. Getting called out on something like that would certainly get you ass pounded career-wise.

Why don't you get your CS degree? I'd imagine that you could get it relatively easily, seeing as you've already obtained a degree, you can done some of the coursework, and you have practical experience.

Seeing as you do have a job now though, you have said practical experience. Having a few years of real world experience tends to go a bit further than that piece of paper. How much testing of the waters have to done as far as getting your resume out?

Well - HIGHLY IMHO - it seems you have an ethical problem, and you want someone to justify and make it "all right" for you to do this :)

I lie constantly about these sort of "practical" stuff - simply because (again IMO) you are not cheating anybody out of their job.

If you (realistically) consider yourself skilled enough (as much as the next guy with a degree), then morally/ethically it really does not matter since your not cheating anybody out of anything - your employer will still get the work he needs, you will get better paycheck but you will do the work for it and that's about it. Thinking about other people with a degree who didn't get the job because of you - you can justify it by the fact that they were unable to get the job instead of you when the degree criteria was removed (if you didn't lie about anything else). So again realistically you have proven to be more competent :)

[Edited by - RedDrake on May 26, 2008 2:38:42 AM]

Yeah it a tough call.
In my case I have a friend that got his current job not necessarily lying but making it look like he already had his CS degree on his resume(He put something to the effect bs from such a college in large bold then in fine print degree in progress). Needless to say he got the job and makes way more than I do even though he calls me up for help quite often since I have way more technical experience.
But if you don't mind sleeping at night telling yourself lies the recent spate of cases were successfull individuals having been caught should give you pause?

As you and other people have already stated, if you get caught lieing on your resume about that, you'll basically be done for. Now, the odds of getting caught... It's one thing to lie about knowing something you don't know, but falsifying credentials...

Now, if you have enough experience, college basically becomes a secondary thought. Although, you live in NYC and earn less than the national average???

But I'd state just get your degree, even if from a local community college or something. You can always just lie and state that you ran out of money or had some personal issues or something else, and that's why you had to finish up at a local college, and nobody will care.

I've never been in the position of an employer, but if I were to get an applicant claiming to have a degree, I'd be quite suspicious if the application didn't contain copies of the relevant documents. Needless to say that forging such documents would be a very bad idea.

I never realized degrees were still such a big deal after gaining significant work experience. Do you think a well-crafted cover letter could compensate? I wouldn't lie, though, it could come back to bite you in a big way. As someone else suggested, perhaps you should just suck it up and get a CS degree. You could do a coursework MS in one year -- and then you'll have a graduate degree.

I personally have not and will never claim false accomplishments on my resume, for the same reasons why I've never cheated in an exam. I'd much rather fail honestly than succeed via fraudulent means.

It's also something that if I caught someone trying this at my place of work would severely tarnish their reputation in my eyes. I generally treat everyone as basically honest by default, but once someone gets a reputation of lying to further their own ends then I start doubting everything they ever say to me ever again.

On the practical side of things, I don't know what background checks most employers do, but a basic degree check isn't that hard to do, especially if as has been mentioned they ask for copies of your transcript or certificate. You've also got a rather distinctive name (lucky you; mine's dirt common), so it's probably fairly easy to search for your qualifications on the 'net.

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I personally have not and will never claim false accomplishments on my resume, for the same reasons why I've never cheated in an exam. I'd much rather fail honestly than succeed via fraudulent means.

Quoted for truth. Not only would it be a major ethical failure to falsify your credentials, you'd also probably get caught with it at the moment when it does the most harm.

So life is unfair. I personally don't think that makes it right to be dishonest on a resume, but the decision is yours.

I think it's fairly likely that you would get caught anyway. In my experience, employers do take the time to check up on these things, especially if they're serious about a job candidate.

Or you could GO GET an actual computer science degree. You might even learn something.

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Original post by Oluseyi ... I have completed coursework in both electrical engineering and computer science - which probably has led to many an HR flunkie dismissing my resume out of hand. ... I would rather hold on to an ethical position than tell a little white lie.

I agree with sticking to your guns. Don't compromise your integrity just to make a few more bucks. As for your friend and her arguments, fact check them. It'll likely turn out that her assumptions are wrong.

Instead of going back to college to get a CS degree, consider getting certification - Microsoft, Sun, Red Hat, Oracle, Cisco etc. depending on your specific skills. That will cost less than going back to school and it'll show the HR flunkies that you've got the skills they're looking for.

On the other hand, the economy totally sucks balls right now, so going back to school and staying there for a few more years - while frustrating - might not be such a bad thing to do. Maybe go in for a masters degree.

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Original post by zer0wolf Why don't you get your CS degree? I'd imagine that you could get it relatively easily, seeing as you've already obtained a degree, you can done some of the coursework, and you have practical experience.

I've considered it, but I'm no longer convinced I ultimately want a career in this business. I'm hoping to go back to school next year, to get a masters in industrial design. Consequently, I'm really just curious about maximizing my wages based on current qualifications and experience.

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Seeing as you do have a job now though, you have said practical experience. Having a few years of real world experience tends to go a bit further than that piece of paper. How much testing of the waters have to done as far as getting your resume out?

Not much. As I said earlier, I'm planning to emphasize networking more this time, as opposed to blind resume drops subject to non-technical HR folk. I was aiming to start looking around August, but my friend precipitated this discussion because she is currently searching for a better job and she wishes she had my skills which she views as insanely marketable.

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Original post by RedDrake Well - HIGHLY IMHO - it seems you have an ethical problem, and you want someone to justify and make it "all right" for you to do this :)

Sorry, no. I'm not doing it. What I want to know is if this is really common in the technical industries. I would feel it's common but not rampant, as I have a co-worker (who was hired into a supervisory role) who knows nothing, but I really blame the hiring individual, who interviewed the candidate, told us "he's very experienced with technology X", and has been proven a fool as a result.

Oddly enough, the guy wasn't fired. They just turned him into a project manager.

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Original post by Nytegard Although, you live in NYC and earn less than the national average???

For my job description and level of experience.

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Original post by SnotBob I've never been in the position of an employer, but if I were to get an applicant claiming to have a degree, I'd be quite suspicious if the application didn't contain copies of the relevant documents. Needless to say that forging such documents would be a very bad idea.

Employers do not, generally, ask for copies of your bachelor's degree certificate. They can just call the school - or, more likely, have a screening agency do that for them.

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Original post by Trapper Zoid On the practical side of things, I don't know what background checks most employers do, but a basic degree check isn't that hard to do, especially if as has been mentioned they ask for copies of your transcript or certificate. You've also got a rather distinctive name (lucky you; mine's dirt common), so it's probably fairly easy to search for your qualifications on the 'net.

Indeed. And given how outspoken I am, it'd also be easy to find, say, posts on GDNet where I've mentioned my actual degree (you know... like this one? [smile]).

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Original post by DukeAtreides076 So life is unfair.

I think this can't be overstated enough. Life is unfair; get over it. I don't believe in trying to find shortcuts just because some others get a handout.

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Or you could GO GET an actual computer science degree. You might even learn something.

Eh, overrated. [smile] I was classified as a senior at UNC Greensboro before I left (oddly enough, for personal reasons). I could get it in three semesters, I think, but I don't care enough. I make a decent living, I will steadily make more money (between August 2006 and August 2007 my annual income increased by $20,000), and I really don't think I want a career in this field anyway.

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Original post by LessBread I agree with sticking to your guns. Don't compromise your integrity just to make a few more bucks. As for your friend and her arguments, fact check them. It'll likely turn out that her assumptions are wrong.

Good points. Even if nobody ever knew that I lied (hypothetically, as I am adamant about not doing this, and she can view me as a fool if she wishes), I would know. I simply refuse to compromise my integrity for a few dollars more.

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On the other hand, the economy totally sucks balls right now, so going back to school and staying there for a few more years - while frustrating - might not be such a bad thing to do. Maybe go in for a masters degree.

There are always people making money in a downturn, though. I mean, companies are still hiring - in some cases even as they fire people. I'm going to put myself out there soon - build up my website, showcase some enterprise utilities, etc - and aim for the six-figure mark. In an economy that "totally sucks balls" [smile]

As for grad school, I mentioned that I hope to go next year. I need to earn and pay bills in the meantime, though, and it would be nice to go into grad school with no more undergrad debt (about $15K)...

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Original post by Oluseyi I am undervalued. Not only do I earn below the local average for my job description and amount of experience, I apparently earn below the national average. I am fairly certain the major reason why is my lack of a computer science degree - I changed majors and earned a BA in Cinema and Cultural Studies, though I have completed coursework in both electrical engineering and computer science - which probably has led to many an HR flunkie dismissing my resume out of hand.

Perhaps, I don't know how I would have behaved had it crossed my desk, depends on what other qualifications were on it. One thing I would point out though is that if you get passed HR and on to the actual technical reviewer, chances are that CS degree will matter less and less. I've met a LOT of people with CS degrees that...stank.

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(Yes, I now employ networking to ensure my information gets into the right hands in the first place.)

The most important tool in the world. The rest is just icing.

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A friend who happens to be privy to the above and I where discussing the local job market, and she advocated that I state on my resume that I do possess a computer science degree. To her, I am being unreasonable in refusing to falsify my credentials, even though I possess all the expected knowledge and skills that said credentials would imply. In fact, she described herself as feeling like Ben Affleck in Good Will Hunting, where he describes hoping every day that he'll go pick up his friend (Matt Damon) for their manual labor job and he'll be gone, off to utilize his tremendous intellect and gifts to the fullest extent. TO her, I am voluntarily leaving money on the table and letting myself be sidelined because I would rather hold on to an ethical position than tell a little white lie.

I'm not good with ethics. However, if it will bother you, don't do it. More importantly, since you're not likely to be leaving your job to move to another if you're just going to be heading back to school...why bother lying at all? The reasoning for it seems to be "If I take another job in this field..." but yet you're saying "I'm thinking that I'm not going to take any further jobs in this field..." That would suggest that you've already solved your own problem.

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She further cites people who have fudged their credentials and have risen to positions of power, like the current president of Paramount, who apparently lied that he was a lawyer so he could act as an agent... and now he's the boss.

I always question those things, there have been some pretty famous lies that got people "moved" in an up or down direction, but none of those lies ultimately got them to be a CEO. That takes skill...and connections.

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To my way of thinking, getting caught is even the lesser problem - though still a problem. The New York City technical community is not that large, and if you get outed/blacklisted at a place with enough visibility and connections, you might basically be done for. But even more important to me is my own integrity, to earn things and overcome challenges through patience, hard work and determination - sounds corny, but I'd rather every aspect of my life remained above board.

Your belief in yourself is the most important thing. Don't compromise it for a few extra dollars. Especially not when you consider that those few extra dollars you earn will be pocket change compared to what you'll get when you get into upper management at some company :D

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Am I foolish? I don't think so, but do I have an overly optimistic view of the world? Should I do it because "everybody else does"? (You obviously can tell how I feel. I'm interested, though, to know how other people view the same situation.)

The world isn't fair. My first "technical" job was won through connections, and assassina...uh technical skills. I wasn't paid spectacularly for it, partly due to my degree. I moved up the ladder, quite quickly too, and then when I eventually left that job, I was getting paid near the top of my class of jobs. At which point, the difference between the degree and not was basically nil.

Don't lie on your CV - if you possess the skills and knowledge equivalent to a qualification make that clear instead.

If I was to find out someone lied on a CV (and adding qualifications is a big one to me) I would be more than irate and it could be grounds for letting them go (yes they may be good at their job etc. but if they are dishonest in one aspect of their life you may start to suspect it moves through other areas).

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Original post by Oluseyi (Yes, I now employ networking to ensure my information gets into the right hands in the first place.)

I think Washu covered this point but it's worth stressing. If your CV lands in the hands of the people who are actually hiring (so yes in some companies steer well clear of HR) they know what they want and your experience and (self-taught?) knowledge will start to stand out more than someone who simply has a CS qualification.

Spree

Just last week I was in NYC eating dinner with some friends and family who were graduating from NYU. One of them has a job as a restaurant critic in NYC! 22 years old. Gets paid to go to the finest restaurants in the city several times a week, with or without dates, and write a review about that restaurant. How did he get it? He forged his resume.

The difference between his situation and yours though is that if you get caught, you're blacklisted in your field. Restaurant critic isn't even remotely close to his major.

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Original post by Washu I'm not good with ethics. However, if it will bother you, don't do it. More importantly, since you're not likely to be leaving your job to move to another if you're just going to be heading back to school...why bother lying at all? The reasoning for it seems to be "If I take another job in this field..." but yet you're saying "I'm thinking that I'm not going to take any further jobs in this field..." That would suggest that you've already solved your own problem.

Well, it's more like "I'm thinking I'll only take one or two more jobs in this field, one immediately to raise my earnings (and help quickly pay off outstanding student loans), and maybe one more eventually in some sort of overpaid consulting capacity ([smile]) while I attend grad school. If I play it right, I could even get into an industry where my transition from software development to industrial design would simply mean moving diagonally (upwards and/or laterally) within the same organization.

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I always question those things, there have been some pretty famous lies that got people "moved" in an up or down direction, but none of those lies ultimately got them to be a CEO. That takes skill...and connections.

Indeed, I smell a bit of urban legend there. The truth is probably much more mundane.

Thanks, guys.

As I'm getting older, I find my moral compass to be ever steadier. There was something about the late teens and early 20s that made things seem so damned uncertain. Now, when I look back at any dilemma I had during college, I tend to think "what the hell was my problem? There was clearly a right answer."

In the cases where I have done something "wrong" and gotten caught out for it, every single time I have bitched myself out for not doing the "right" thing. It really wasn't that much more effort than the "wrong" thing, and the "wrong" thing didn't net me enough to compensate for the trouble of getting caught. In the long run, the "right" thing is the easiest thing.

In your case, is the extra money now worth the trouble of getting caught in the future? I always assume I'll get caught anymore, apparently I'm not a good liar (I suppose there are worse problems to have). If money issues are a concern, are there other things you can do that you know are more ethical than lying on your resume, that you know you should be doing anyways, and that could help out almost as much as the pay increase? If there are, and you choose to lie, and get caught, you *will* kick your own ass for taking the "easy" way. You will not understand why it was so important to you to go see five movies in the theater in the month of July alone (just an example).

In my case, I had a problem with speeding down the highway. Okay, to be honest, I still do, but I don't do it anywhere near as often as I used to. Yeah, it was fun. It also led to me spending over $1000 in speeding tickets, plus my increased insurance premiums, money that could have been spent on more important things. Was that entertainment worth that price? *Fuck no,* and now I sit back and wonder why I ever thought it would be. I guess I was arrogant and thought I'd never get caught.

Even if we view how I treat my body as an ethical question, eating fast food, junk food, energy drinks, etc., was never, ever a good choice. It has such bad reprecussions for my health, I knew it at the time I consumed it, and yet I somehow still thought I could get away with it. You can't get away with something like that, the piper always comes for his payment! I guess it took *two* bouts with caffeine addiction and hitting +40lbs to teach me that.

Telling my boss that he was an asshole... wait, no, I'm glad I did that one.

I think my point is that we always know what is the right answer to our problems. It just doesn't always mesh with what we *want* to do. When that happens, we call it a moral or ethical dilemma, even though we know it isn't really and are just trying to make excuses. We all do it to a certain degree; we're flawed people. I just try now to recognize when that is happening for me, hopefully with more success than failure this time around.

I'm in a very similar situation, no CS degree and getting paid well below average because of it. Things have started to turn around lately though since I've been changing jobs like crazy, my salary has doubled in the last 3 years.

The money will be there eventually. You can always find more of it. Integrity is a lot harder to get back though. Even if you knew for certain that you would never get caught, is this a path you want to go down?

I know you said that you're not interesting in a career in the CS field. But so what? From an objective POV, I have no idea why that matters. You're concern is money, not final and permanent career choice. A B.S. in Cinema and Cultural Studies and Computer Science, I'd think, would make you very attractive regardless of the job. It shows you can use your right and left brain and that you are very flexible and adaptable. The economy is such that you need every advantage you can get. No why deny yourself because "you don't feel like it"? Go get it, man! This is not a dilemna, but a way to sidestep an issue that's easily solved by getting that degree.

In short, don't short change yourself because of a whim. (Thinking long term) Two B.S. degrees, a Masters degree and a buttload of experience is going to allow you to get the salary you deserve if not much more. GO! Finish your education, damnit!


(I felt like I just channeled my inner Oluseyi, lol)