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Israel using white phosphorus bombs in the gaza strip...

Started by Toolmaker Jan 5, 2009 at 3:31 PM 198 replies 38.3k views

Original Post

Jan 5, 2009 at 3:31 PM

I just stumbled across this: Now, according to Israel, these are smoke bombs or artillery shells, but in fact these are phosphorus bombs. Now, most of us know what phosphorus does: It catches fire at extremely low temperatures. As a human being, getting hit by these basically means you're gonna catch fire that's difficult to extinguish. The Genevian Convention explicitely forbids the use these weapons(napalm included aswell). Now, personally I think Israel has been pushing it for way too long already. They always seem to blame the Palestinians for firing rockets, but they apparantly fail to realize that they're pressing them into a corner by cutting their supplies of food, medications and fuel. In the end, the palestines see no other way out that violence. I would probably act the same way after 60 years of oppression. The current invasion has caused lots of 'collateral damage' in the form of dead women and children. Since when is it acceptable to murder women and children in order to kill 1 high ranked officers? Since when is it acceptable for the western world to watch how a country willingly breaks the Geneva convention, which we all seem to hold up high in standard? My opinion? It's about time the western world stops watching the conflict and force a resolution onto the Israelians / Palestines. Rollback everything to the 1968 invasions, restore the Palestian economy, and station a UN peaceforce. And if Israel refuses to cooperate, just do it by force. Yes, I'm aware that the palestians aren't as innocent as it might look from my post. I'm well aware they're the aggressors aswell, but Israel has been driving these people into a corner for years now. Toolmaker

owl

Jan 5, 2009 at 3:35 PM

Do you people realise that there are LOTS of other cruel battles in the world besides this one?

Turn off the TV for once. You are being manipulated by the media.

KNOCK KNOCK WAKEUP!

Toolmaker

Jan 5, 2009 at 3:48 PM

Quote:
Original post by owl
Do you people realise that there are LOTS of other cruel battles in the world besides this one?

Turn off the TV for once. You are being manipulated by the media.

KNOCK KNOCK WAKEUP!

Yes, I'm well aware there are more wars going on. But you can't end all wars at the same time. News flash: I hardly watch TV. Most of the time my TV is on, I'm either watching a movie, or playing on my Wii with friends. I obtain my news from several sources, including 3 newspapers and various internet sites. And of course, the Dutch media is mostly pro-israel on reporting the news. So in fact, they're pretending to be pro-israel to convince me to pick sides with the palestinians.

Also: It's a very good idea to stick our head in our asses and ignore all these wars. Let's pretend we're all living happily together in a sugar coated land! Why care that other people are suffering, at least we're not!

Mike.Popoloski

Jan 5, 2009 at 3:50 PM

You people (not referring to anyone in particular) need to make up your minds about whether you want to police the world or not. The US got so much flack for that, so why is it being suggested again?

owl

Jan 5, 2009 at 3:54 PM

We ignore the suffering of people everyday in our own countries, pretending that we care about foreing problems (we are not fully informed of) is just a form of hysteria. Hysteria sells news.

Toolmaker

Jan 5, 2009 at 4:04 PM

Quote:
Original post by Mike.Popoloski
You people (not referring to anyone in particular) need to make up your minds about whether you want to police the world or not. The US got so much flack for that, so why is it being suggested again?

There's a huge difference between a single state 'policing' the world, and a joint venture of countries trying to serve the greater good of the world / humanity.

Quote:
Original post by Owl
We ignore the suffering of people everyday in our own countries, pretending that we care about foreing problems (we are not fully informed of) is just a form of hysteria. Hysteria sells news.

I doubt noone cares about the suffering of those people. Perhaps you don't, or perhaps you don't see that people are trying to help. But we have food banks, people who give away furniture to poor people who can't afford new furniture, etc. If beggars ask me for money, I buy them food. It's hypocritical to scream that we should just pretend it's not there, because you apparantly have the feeling that noone cares.

curtmax_0

Jan 5, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Quote:
Original post by Toolmaker
If beggars ask me for money, I buy them food.

Used to do that. Now I just tell 'em to contact Obama.

You really need to calm down. Wars are simply a symptom of the existence of the state, so maybe you should work on eliminating the state first ;)

Although I would like to see the UN or US try to 'peacekeep' around Israel. I'd pull out the bag of popcorn and actually watch TV for once...

frob

Jan 5, 2009 at 4:53 PM

Quote:
Original post by Toolmaker
Now, according to Israel, these are smoke bombs or artillery shells, but in fact these are phosphorus bombs. ... The Genevian Convention explicitely forbids the use these weapons

Really? FACT that they are using the banned forms of phosphorus?

You state it is a fact, but I can find no news outlet that agrees with you.

I find lots of news sites saying that a few groups have issues accusations, but I haven't seen anybody say it is a fact. Detecting phosphorus is an extremely simple chemical test, and phosphorus bombs dump out an awful lot of testable material. But even then, just detecting phosphates isn't enough, it would need to be one of the banned forms.

I have seen a few pictures that could be explained by the banned forms of phosphorus, but they could also be explained by countless other more legitimate things.

Other than pictures which could be phosphorus, I haven't seen any news sites with real actual evidence of the specifically banned forms of phosphates.

I don't know either way, I'm just cautioning from jumping to conclusions.

Luckless

Jan 5, 2009 at 5:12 PM

Looks more like shaped charge airburst rounds to me. All full colour images of White Phosphorus going off that I've seen usually contain more orange colour in their outskirts.

LessBread

Jan 5, 2009 at 5:43 PM

Israel rains fire on Gaza with phosphorus shells (Times Online Jan 5, 2009)

Quote:

...
As the Israeli army stormed to the edges of Gaza City and the Palestinian death toll topped 500, the tell-tale shells could be seen spreading tentacles of thick white smoke to cover the troops’ advance. “These explosions are fantastic looking, and produce a great deal of smoke that blinds the enemy so that our forces can move in,” said one Israeli security expert. Burning blobs of phosphorus would cause severe injuries to anyone caught beneath them and force would-be snipers or operators of remote-controlled booby traps to take cover. Israel admitted using white phosphorus during its 2006 war with Lebanon.
...
The Geneva Treaty of 1980 stipulates that white phosphorus should not be used as a weapon of war in civilian areas, but there is no blanket ban under international law on its use as a smokescreen or for illumination. However, Charles Heyman, a military expert and former major in the British Army, said: “If white phosphorus was deliberately fired at a crowd of people someone would end up in The Hague. White phosphorus is also a terror weapon. The descending blobs of phosphorus will burn when in contact with skin.”

The Israeli military last night denied using phosphorus, but refused to say what had been deployed. “Israel uses munitions that are allowed for under international law,” said Captain Ishai David, spokesman for the Israel Defence Forces. “We are pressing ahead with the second stage of operations, entering troops in the Gaza Strip to seize areas from which rockets are being launched into Israel.”
...

For a run down of the use of WP in Iraq, see White phosphorus: weapon on the edge

Israel has also used cluster bombs on Gaza: Massive artillery, aerial bombardment precedes invasion by IDF ground forces Hundreds of shells were fired, including cluster bombs aimed at open areas.

Israel has also used bunker busters on Gaza: IAF uses new US-supplied smart bomb The Israel Air Force used a new bunker-buster missile that it received recently from the United States in strikes against Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, The Jerusalem Post learned on Sunday. Two Israeli armored divisions stand by outside Gaza Whereas Saturday, Israeli bombers struck with missiles, Sunday, they dropped Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28) on the Philadelphi tunnels. This laser-guided, 5,000-pound conventional munition was developed for penetrating hardened Iraqi command centers located deep underground. It carries a 4,400-pound penetrating warhead.

And the ICRC says that ambulances are being denied access too: Gaza wounded dying as cut off from help: ICRC

Israel denies white phosphorus shelling (Financial Times Jan 5, 2009)

Quote:

Israel denied claims last night that it had used white phosphorous shells in its assault on the Gaza Strip, resisting claims that the Israeli military had contravened international conventions by using the weapons in heavily populated areas.

The front pages of many western newspapers on Monday showed a picture of Israeli shells with distinctive white shaped plumes exploding over Gaza.
...
Some military experts insisted that, judging from the pictures, some form of white phosphorous might have been in use.

“Although, I can’t say with 100 per cent certainty that these are classic white phosphorous rounds, they appear to have some form of white phosphorous content,” said Charles Heyman, a former editor of Jane’s World Armies. “If that is the case, this is bad news and the Israelis will lose out in terms of their international standing.”
...
Dr Bell said that the use of white phosphorous shells in a battlefield situation was legal, and that there was no blanket ban under international law on their use as a smokescreen or for illumination. However, she noted that, according to the Geneva Convention, these substances are banned as a weapon of war in civilian areas because they burn skin. If the munitions were proven to contain white phosphorous, this could open Israel up to criticism because the Gaza Strip is densely populated.

Israel ready to slice through heart of Gaza

Quote:

...
As soldiers massed on the edges of Gaza City, Israel was suspected of screening its assault with white phosphorus - a substance that causes terrible burns but is not illegal when used as a smokescreen. Israel used white phosphorus in Lebanon in 2006, and British and US troops have used it in Iraq.
...

Guthur

Jan 5, 2009 at 6:27 PM

Isreal is allowing no one into, and presumably out of, Gaza so of course no one can verify. Wonder how they can legitmately do such a thing to be honest.

Frankly they are all 'terrorists' if you look at from a neutral point of view, just because Isreal is a bigger state with bigger weapons doesn't make what they do any less a form of terrorism.

I was actually thinking of something related today; what constitutes a weapon of mass destruction. Is it colateral damage or number of people killed, or is it the terrifying nature of the weapon used.
examples:
cluster bomb on a stadium full of people will kill as many as the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.
Chemical/Biological weapons dropped on a rural area would probably kill more cows than anything else.
Being burnt alive by a substance that can not be easily extinguished and will destroy your body from the inside, now that sounds like a weapon of terror alright.

Hamas don't have white phosphorus, or nuclear weapons, or chemical/biological weapons. Actually all they have is a bunch of glorified fireworks and some machine guns.

The Palestinians have absolutely nothing to lose, and consequentially have nothing to bargain with, and the Isrealis have been getting away with their own unilateral agenda since they developed nuclear weapons; no wonder its all a mess.

Oh and I can't get a job because the government has taxed the life out of everything to pay for a bloated civil service, frankly I don't know why I bother getting up in the morning :| Of course its not the only reason but its a fair point :p

LessBread

Jan 5, 2009 at 10:07 PM

Quote:
Original post by Guthur
I was actually thinking of something related today; what constitutes a weapon of mass destruction. Is it colateral damage or number of people killed, or is it the terrifying nature of the weapon used.
examples:
cluster bomb on a stadium full of people will kill as many as the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.
Chemical/Biological weapons dropped on a rural area would probably kill more cows than anything else.
Being burnt alive by a substance that can not be easily extinguished and will destroy your body from the inside, now that sounds like a weapon of terror alright.

There is no official definition. During the Cold War it meant nuclear weapons. As part of the marketing campaign selling the American public on the 2003 invasion of Iraq the ambiguity of the term was used to frighten Americans into supporting the operation. Bush administration spokespersons kept a straight face when using the term because they knew it could mean chemical and biological weapons which were easy to connect Saddam with. They also knew that most people hearing the term would associated it with nuclear weapons, which were not easy to connect Saddam with. But just in case it wasn't clear what they were up to, they tossed out a few "smoking gun mushroom cloud" references to drive home the fear. Even to this day the most hard line members of the Bush administration continue to claim that Saddam had WMD despite the piles of evidence to the contrary.

Weapon of mass destruction

WMD: Words of mass dissemination

Saddam Does Not Have "Weapons of Mass Destruction"

slayemin

Jan 6, 2009 at 12:52 AM

I was in a field artillery battery with the Marines. We trained with white phosphorous shells on occassion. The shells use a timed fuse and are a base-ejecting projectile which contain felt wedges of white phosphorous (WP). The optimal height for burst is 100m above ground (if i recall correctly). The purpose of using WP is to cause fires. The "Shake 'n Bake" method is to use High Explosive fragmentation shells on something breakable and flammable, such as fuel silos, and then follow up with WP to ignite it. Using WP on people is illegal, but probably ignored.

Based on that picture, yes: That's a WP artillery round. Those little white trails that you see are the felt wedges. Notice the mid-air burst: That's the timed fuse in effect on a base ejecting projectile.

The bad thing about WP is that it creates its own oxygen when it burns, so putting water on it doesn't make it stop burning. The only way to stop WP from burning is to wipe it off as fast as possible with some sort of brush, or slap some mud on it. Then, get to a hospital ASAP. If you still have WP burning in your flesh, it needs to be carved out with a knife or something. Suffice it to say, WP is nasty stuff. Not much different from napalm.

davepermen

Jan 6, 2009 at 2:17 AM

Quote:
Original post by Mike.Popoloski
You people (not referring to anyone in particular) need to make up your minds about whether you want to police the world or not. The US got so much flack for that, so why is it being suggested again?

how about the other way? america should stop give israel money and support and let both handle it on their own?

Krokhin

Jan 6, 2009 at 9:14 AM

WP bombs in the night-

">1:40
I think,it's a faulty circle.
Initially Hamas cry about "holy war" and shake their old Kalash guns
and self-made rockets,when Israel comes-they begin to hide among civilians,
Israel don't want to lose soldiers and use WP bombs.Nowaday children see
a death of their parents now and become a terrorists later,and they
already know how to hide in ruins.Israel come again...and so on.

[Edited by - Krokhin on January 6, 2009 10:14:45 AM]

Guthur

Jan 6, 2009 at 10:01 AM

Quote:
Original post by davepermen
how about the other way? america should stop give israel money and support and let both handle it on their own?

They can't easily take that route because of the power of Jewish lobby groups in America.

iNsAn1tY

Jan 6, 2009 at 10:27 AM

Quote:
Original post by Guthur
Quote:
Original post by davepermen
how about the other way? america should stop give israel money and support and let both handle it on their own?

They can't easily take that route because of the power of Jewish lobby groups in America.

Ah, it's not a proper proxy war yet. The Arab states need to step up and start supplying some decent weaponry to the Palestinians. It's hardly fair as it stands. Unguided, home-made missiles versus the latest US hardware? I mean come on, it'll be a massacre.

While I might be revelling in being facetious and sarcastic, I personally have no interest in collateral damage or resolutions which aren't worth the paper they're printed on from an impotent UN. Give them all guns and let them settle it themselves once and for all, or just wait for Israel to withdraw for another tense ceasefire which both sides will violate in the name of defence and which will inevitably break down in the near future spurring another cycle of violence and bloodshed. What else are you going to do? I mean, really?

Guthur

Jan 6, 2009 at 10:35 AM

I came up with a plan though its very sadistic and I don't know if I should really mention it....There is one thing they all need and have to share in the middle east and its in short supply, take it away....

I'm sure you can work it out :)

trzy

Jan 6, 2009 at 10:45 AM

Quote:
Original post by owl
Do you people realise that there are LOTS of other cruel battles in the world besides this one?

Turn off the TV for once. You are being manipulated by the media.

KNOCK KNOCK WAKEUP!

Heh, good point. I'm always surprised by how riled up people get by an otherwise irrelevant conflict that does not affect them, while ignoring other conflicts. It's primarily Europeans, though, with Americans coming in a distant second. Most people in the US aren't particularly concerned about the conflict or its outcome, even if they might be inclined to side with Israel or put blame on both parties for being at each others' throats for so long.

Asians don't give a damn one way or the other.

But Europeans seem to have a pathological reaction to Israel, particularly Western Europeans. They claim it's because they care about human rights and are angered by the injustice (sometimes using America's backing of Israel as an excuse), but this can't be the explanation. The high degree of selectivity against Israel, for Palestinians, and the ability to be so much more calm and collected about any other conflict suggests there must be something else at play here.

More research is needed...

Guthur

Jan 6, 2009 at 11:00 AM

Well actually to be fair Europeans and Americans should take an interest because we set it up to be like this, we drew the borders, and we, and the soviets flooded the place with arms. Personally I have my own problems so meh, plus I'm a cold calculated b tard :)

We could start worrying about Africa, but frankly its more of a mess and alot bigger so...

Or we could look at the whole skewed world economy but the rich make the decisions so thats not going to work either.

I don't like this ride anymore I want off....

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