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My career plan

Started by Dunge Jan 20, 2009 at 5:18 PM 28 replies 4.8k views

Original Post

Jan 20, 2009 at 5:18 PM

Hi there, First of all, sorry if I have some grammatical errors and sorry to bug you with personal problems, but I had to talk about this somewhere. I'm 23yo and I finished University with a "computer science" equivalent in July. It was always clear in my head that I was gonna be hired as a video game programmer with the recent company establishing themselves here and hiring tons of people. I put a lot of effort in my life about learning video game programming which I though would allow me to be an interesting candidate for a job. I took a few months of break after my study until after Christmas. I know a lot of things about video game programming. Learned OpenGL, DirectX9, DirectX10, some shaders programming by myself, made a few small game project (in school and by myself). This allowed me to have 2 internships and one summer job in a well known game developer studio in 2006-2007. I think I was in good term with most of other employees and managed to get the work done. The job itself was surprisingly harder than I expected for a college internship, assigning me directly to important parts of an engine right at the start. I had to learn to code for PSP, NDS and Wii at the same time, but I managed to get the hang of it pretty fast and I think I helped a lot during the short amount of time I worked there, at least I never had any negative comments. When I left I was told I could ask to return anytime and they would take me back. So in December I was surprised when I sent back my resume because it took 2 weeks before I had a "we will look into it and come back to you" reply and after a month I still had nothing. I tried to send a reminder yesterday and got a fast reply saying that they only need an next-gen experienced 3d programmer right now and nothing else. Ok, I agree I never worked with PS3 or X360, but since I know how to use DirectX10 shaders and other consoles, I don't think it would be much harder... Only an old employee from another company in another city who working on next-gen could have the qualifications to get that job? There's two interesting video games studio where I live, so I tried this month to send my resume to the other one. I picked up their interest and they got me for an interview. I'm good for talking, but it has been 5 years I had an interview so I was not perfect either. I think I did good enough for the "personal questions" part and then got to the technical part. They had multiple C++ question, not basic stuff but not that hard either. I did not take enough time to think before answering and most answers I gave were badly formulated. They asked about one of the only thing I never did in C++ (overloading a new and new[] operator) so I messed up, then afterward made an error on a even more basic question (I knew the answer and I don't know why I answered something else). The last one was about giving the inverse of a matrix and I had not manually calculated matrices since my first university class (always using D3DXMatrix***) so I stressed out before thinking clearly again, while in fact it was pretty straightforward and I could have answered the right answer by myself but of course I did not. As you can see, I was pretty unhappy when I left because I only managed to get about half of these questions right when I know about things much more complex. A few days later I received a email insisting that I did great and have all needed qualifications and a good personality, but that I was not hired because they only had one free spot and two candidates. I was expecting this answer since I screwed up in my interview, but now it put me job less. Both places told me they kept my resume in case they have an open spot I can fill that they will contact me back. Can I actually expect this or is saying there is no spot left a polite way to deny someone? Both places are kinda new and still do some advanced recruiting publicity in schools and hired hundreds in the last few years, so why would they both suddenly have no open spot all of a sudden? Is the economy crisis that bad? Am I a so bad person? I though I had a good advantage over most people just out of University and I don't have a very bad personality so I'm clueless of what's happening. Now my finances are getting a bit low and I have multiple choices. -Try to find a job as a programmer in something else than video game development, at least for a while. It could be tricky since I'm not as good in other domains than video games. -Try to get hired in another city and move out, but I like where I am currently I wouldn't really want to leave. -Get someone to lend me money, get in dept and continue to do nothing of my life for a while still waiting for news of one of these two company. -Become a indie developer and start my own studio, but that's just dreaming since I know it's impossible with no starting money and no good team. [Edited by - Dunge on February 21, 2009 9:29:26 PM]

Guthur

Jan 20, 2009 at 5:53 PM

Dude calm down there it is not the end, you are only starting out and will have plenty of opportunities to prove yourself in the future.

Finishing Uni might seem at first like it is the some sort of great transitional time and it is to a certain extent but you wont suddenly stop developing yourself and indeed should put such thoughts out of your head. You must now embarked on a path that is alot less structured and linear so you should be mindful of this, and maintain your focus of self-development and ultimately gain what you want to achieve. Maybe you will have to take a few detours on the way but that shouldn't put you off, the road ahead will have many ups and downs and twists and turns so take them as they come.

-If money is tight look for any type of job, preferable one that involves the discipline you hope to develop.

-Talk to your family or friends or even God if you feel down and lost, online forum boards are not on the list though :)

Anyway keep your head up and keep making positive moves, don't worry about the current economic dodginess it is outside your control and will pass as it always does.

ace4016

Jan 20, 2009 at 6:08 PM

Just apply to a bunch of other places (possibly some not in the game industry if money is tight...) including places in other cities; it's best not to put all your eggs in one basket...lose the basket and all is gone :P There's always work to be found as well, even if it's undesirable...sometimes you have to suck it up and do what it takes to pay the bills.

Dunge

Jan 20, 2009 at 6:16 PM

Guthur thx for the thoughts. I may look depressed or something to write such a long post but don't worry I have a clear and optimist view of the future and won't let things like this discourage me. Be also sure that my friends and family already know about this, I just though people in the industry could give me advices from another point of view.

janta

Jan 20, 2009 at 6:19 PM

I agree with the previous poster, don't sit doing nothing, because it'll become harder and harder to get a job. It's always better to show you're positive person that doesn't get easily turned down, even after a failure (I've had quite a few myself, I know how it feels)

Also, try to learn from your previous failures. Why did they turn you down? Was it because you didn't do good enough on the technical stuff? Was it a matter of personality? Was it just because that other guy was totally awesome and they had only one spot? Do you know what the company you applied for values most for the opened position? Is it technical skills? Attitude? Experience?

I'm sure you can ask them about that, so that at least you learn about why they didn't pick you. Try it. Remain positive.

Good luck in your future endeavors.

zer0wolf

Jan 20, 2009 at 6:42 PM

You're putting way more eggs into a single basket than you should. I think by the time I graduated I had a applied for over two dozen jobs. I wound up with two positive responses and took one.

Moral of the story - keeping looking. [wink]

Nypyren

Jan 20, 2009 at 7:16 PM

Go apply at a temp agency while you're searching for a real job. Getting the real job won't happen quickly and you'll need cash to stay afloat.

Temp jobs on the other hand (especially mindless physical labor) are VERY easy to find, and will make you enough money to eat and usually pay rent. If you get day-to-day flexibility, you can skip whenever you feel crappy or need a couple days off for an interview.

redmage78

Jan 20, 2009 at 7:44 PM

I applaud you for sharing your concerns since they are a reflection of the situation many new and intermediate developers are faced with in the industry at the moment, but as Guther mentioned, the crazy economy or state of the industry isn't something you should get bogged down about since it is out of your control.

Although I have little advice to offer regarding how to cope with the frustrations of job hunting and gaining experience in this current market, I would like to offer another perspective regarding the last option you mentioned in your post.

"-Become a indie developer and start my own studio, but that's just dreaming since I know it's impossible with no starting money and no good team."

I do not agree with your statement regarding independent projects at all and hope to offer a more positive view to consider. While I agree with your realistic perspective regarding the difficulties one faces in starting an independent project, I hope you will consider some of the more positive aspects of working with others on independent projects.

Personally, I feel right now is a WONDERFUL time to pursue a quality independent project or start up studio, IF YOU CAN.

Since there are many skilled developers in situations similar to yours, it should be easier to find others more willing to seriously work on an independent project. Considering the state of the industry and the increased qualification demands needed to land a job at the moment, it may be more profitable to 'make your own opportunity'.

Although there are many difficulties in uniting a group of developers to work on an un-funded project, it could be very profitable in experience and if the project is solid then it has a better chance of becoming financially profitable with experienced and determined developers such as yourself driving it to completion.

That being said, best of luck in whatever you pursue.

[Edited by - redmage78 on January 20, 2009 8:44:18 PM]

Yann L

Jan 20, 2009 at 8:15 PM

Quote:
Original post by redmage78
Although there are many difficulties in uniting a group of developers to work on an un-funded project, it could be very profitable in experience and if the project is solid then it has a better chance of becoming financially profitable with experienced and determined developers such as yourself driving it to completion.

There are priorities in life. In his situation, the OP is understandably more concerned about paying for food and rent than to embark on an unpaid adventure of several years.

Unpaid projects are fine if you don't financially depend on their success. They're good as a hobby or to gain experience while having a paying daytime job. In all other cases, stay away from them.

I would also strongly recommend against creating your own company without any startup capital, investors and experience. Especially in the current economic climate, this is a direct slide into financial ruin.

Dunge: As others have mentioned, two applications isn't very much at all. It is certainly frustrating if the job opportunities that you built upon did not work out. But this shouldn't stop you in any way. Most people send out dozens, if not hundreds of applications before they finally score a job. And at the beginning, it will probably not be your dream job.

But keep your priorities straight. Don't get into debt because of that, this would be very stupid. Get a job just to pay for whatever you need to stay afloat. Even if it's not in the video game sector, it will still add experience to your resume. And that is very important for a potential employer.

If you work hard enough, you will eventually get to your dream job. But you should also keep in mind that your definition of that 'dream job' could very well change with time and experience. Lots of kids dream about working in the video game industry, and idolize it somewhat. Sometime later in life, after university and their first few jobs in the industry, they often see it in a very different light.

So try to pursue your goals, but always keep your mind open. You might otherwise miss on some really great opportunities.

redmage78

Jan 20, 2009 at 8:43 PM

I second the sound advice of Yann L. and just wanted to offer a positive outlook on starting your own project or contributing to others in your spare time after you've found employment of some sort.

Saruman

Jan 20, 2009 at 8:57 PM

I know it isn't QC but you could always apply at Softimage in Montreal which is now a subsidiary of Autodesk, that way you would still be working in graphics, physics, and game pipeline and would look great on a resume to a game company at the same time. Just a thought.

frob

Jan 20, 2009 at 8:59 PM

Quote:
Original post by Dunge
It was always clear in my head that I was gonna be hired as a video game programmer with the recent company establishing themselves here and hiring tons of people. I put a lot of effort in my life about learning video game programming which I though would allow me to be an interesting candidate for a job.

Very poor planning on your part.

If you were determined to be at that specific company, you should have networked with them. You should have made very good friends with people at the company. You should have let those people know you are looking for a job, and asked them to get you an interview. Studios only hire a few people every year, so if you want the job you must be there at the right time.

For future reference: If you want to get a job at a specific company, you need to know somebody on the inside, you need to be practically in the door before they even know they need to hire somebody.

Quote:
I know a lot of things about video game programming. Learned OpenGL, DirectX9, DirectX10, some shaders programming by myself, made a few small game project (in school and by myself).

That in itself is not video game programming. That is a bit of graphics. There is a great deal more to a game than that.

Quote:
This allowed me to have 2 internships and one summer job in a well known game developer studio in 2006-2007.

Excellent! That, more than anything, looks very positive on an entry level resume.

Quote:
I think I was in good term with most of other employees and managed to get the work done. The job itself was surprisingly harder than I expected for a college internship, assigning me directly to important parts of an engine right at the start. I had to learn to code for PSP, NDS and Wii at the same time, but I managed to get the hang of it pretty fast and I think I helped a lot during the short amount of time I worked there, at least I never had any negative comments. When I left I was told I could ask to return anytime and they would take me back.

It might surprise you to learn that much intern work is reworked by more senior programmers.

Quote:
So in December I was surprised when I sent back my resume because it took 2 weeks before I had a "we will look into it and come back to you" reply and after a month I still had nothing.

As others mentioned, you put all your hope on this one company. Unless you know some people on the inside who want to hire you, this approach does not work.

Quote:
I tried to send a reminder yesterday and got a fast reply saying that they only need an next-gen experienced 3d programmer right now and nothing else. Ok, I agree I never worked with PS3 or X360, but since I know how to use DirectX10 shaders and other consoles, I don't think it would be much harder... Only an old employee from another company in another city who working on next-gen could have the qualifications to get that job?

If that is what they want, they are correct that you are not a good fit for the job.

Look at the massive layoffs around the industry lately. Look at the layoff numbers: THQ (250), Activision (250), EA (800-1000), Sony (500), and Microsoft Games layoffs expected to be announced before or during their corporate earnings call. Countless small studios are shrinking.

So there are over 2000 experienced game developers looking for work right now.

Right now is a good time for companies to pick up experienced developers for cheap.

Quote:
There's two interesting video games studio where I live, so I tried this month to send my resume to the other one. I picked up their interest and they got me for an interview.

That's really good, too. You got an interview. Congratulations.

But you didn't fit the job.

Now just go out and apply to every other job in the world. You are competing with 2000+ game developers, so don't expect a job in the field to drop into your lap.

Quote:
Now my finances are getting a bit low and I have multiple choices.

That's the biggest reason for needing a job, yes.

Quote:
-Try to find a job as a programmer in something else than video game development, at least for a while. It could be tricky since I'm not as good in other domains than video games.

Excellent option. Jobs are still tough to find right now, but by expanding your search you dramatically improve the odds of finding a good job quickly.

Quote:
-Try to get hired in another city and move out, but I like where I am currently I wouldn't really want to leave.

You either need to plan on moving, or make best buddies with a few people in those local studios and wait for them to be hiring.

Quote:
-Get someone to lend me money, get in dept and continue to do nothing of my life for a while still waiting for news of one of these two company.

Really stupid.

Quote:
-Become a indie developer and start my own studio, but that's just dreaming since I know it's impossible with no starting money and no good team.

Really really stupid.

Go apply to jobs. Lots of jobs. You ought to apply to 50 or more companies each week, aiming for 20 per day.

Accept ANY job you can find that you are qualified for and that you can do.

Once you are working at that job, you can carefully hunt the ideal game programming job you so desperately want.

M2tM

Jan 20, 2009 at 10:00 PM

20 a day is a bit much... But that said, it is not unreasonable to suggest spending about an hour tailoring and filling out extra stuff for a single company. With this in mind, and bearing in mind that when you don't have a job finding a job is your job it is not unreasonable to suggest a wholly attainable 7-8 well-placed applications per day.

Finding 20 jobs and applying to them every day isn't attainable and you'll end up submitting half-assed resumes to all of them. Instead, pick the ones you want and actually modify your cover letter for each and take the time to fill out their application forms properly as well as attaching your standard resume.

Again, when you don't have a job FINDING one is your job. Treat it like work and put effort into it and set hours where you will be actively seeking and applying for new work and allot breaks as well. Stick to the schedule and obviously make room for interviews and you'll do well.

daviangel

Jan 21, 2009 at 2:15 AM

Quote:
Original post by M2tM
20 a day is a bit much... But that said, it is not unreasonable to suggest spending about an hour tailoring and filling out extra stuff for a single company. With this in mind, and bearing in mind that when you don't have a job finding a job is your job it is not unreasonable to suggest a wholly attainable 7-8 well-placed applications per day.

Finding 20 jobs and applying to them every day isn't attainable and you'll end up submitting half-assed resumes to all of them. Instead, pick the ones you want and actually modify your cover letter for each and take the time to fill out their application forms properly as well as attaching your standard resume.

Again, when you don't have a job FINDING one is your job. Treat it like work and put effort into it and set hours where you will be actively seeking and applying for new work and allot breaks as well. Stick to the schedule and obviously make room for interviews and you'll do well.

Yes a big part of life nowadays is learning how to find a job time and time again. It's about as important as teaching a person how to hunt for themselves in the old days so I"m suprised most colleges don't do a better job at this.
Anyways, you'll learn sooner or later, unless you are like one of those programmers that can code 10x better than a normal coder, that you'll have to take jobs that don't even involve programming at worst and if you lucky something to do with computers. Take advantage of working with databases and other mundane business apps since it could come in handy down the road. A fellow programmer at the last place I worked had to work at the local schools doing pc tech work at low wages since he didn't properly plan while he was at school getting his CS degree too. If you were forward thinking and better prepared you would've already had a job lined up before you even graduated. Oh well best thing you can do now is just find continous employment somewhere since not only will it pay the bills but most employers frown upon gaps in employment:(
If you think the economy is really that bad I guess you could go back to school and get your Masters degree in the meantime or something since that's what a lot of people seem to be doing now. And from what I'm hearing it will be about 2 years before the world economies recover from current mess so the timing should be about right.

frob

Jan 21, 2009 at 11:42 AM

Aiming at 20 per day is not unreasonable, if he really is hurting for money. If he doesn't care what the work is, he could even hit four or five per hour in most cities.

When you need money, you should accept any honorable work that you can do.

You literally cannot afford to be too picky. You may not enjoy it, but flipping burgers or vacuuming floors are perfectly acceptable jobs, even if it is short term stop-gap work.

Once you have some steady income, you can devote the remaining waking hours to finding the job you want. Some people have fears about hurting their resume, but don't worry about it. Since you should only be including relevant work experience, there is no reason to omit jobs that don't apply to the game development work.

Winegums

Jan 21, 2009 at 12:05 PM

If you got two interviews from two applications you're not doing badly. If you're getting your foot in the door that tells you that your resume, qualifications and demo reel are acceptable. Brush up on your interview technique, read up on the sort of stuff you're going to need to know. If you were just unlucky in the questioning then that's just unfortunate.

Apply around more. Talk to some recruiters, put your CV up on monster or something. You have to be open to moving, or open to the sectors you work in.

Dunge

Jan 21, 2009 at 1:24 PM

Thx for everyone replies. I'll try to answer most of them.

Quote:
Original post by janta
I agree with the previous poster, don't sit doing nothing, because it'll become harder and harder to get a job.

Sure, holes in resume look bad. The break I took after university was deserved I think (didn't had any since I started it, multiple course per semester, etc). I also took that time to learn DX10 so I guess it's not void. But, it's not a job and leave a hole in the resume.

Quote:
Original post by janta
Also, try to learn from your previous failures. Why did they turn you down?

That's what I wanted to get a hint about when posting here, because I'm clueless for the first one (unless they really stopped hiring), but I know at the second one I screwed the interview, even if as I said I could have done better.

Quote:
Original post by redmage78
Personally, I feel right now is a WONDERFUL time to pursue a quality independent project or start up studio, IF YOU CAN.

As others said, it can't be done if you struggle to pay your rent. I know what a big project look like and it can't be done. What could be done would be a simple game with not much content (geometry/texture wise) but a good gameplay.

Quote:
Original post by Yann L
If you work hard enough, you will eventually get to your dream job. But you should also keep in mind that your definition of that 'dream job' could very well change with time and experience. Lots of kids dream about working in the video game industry, and idolize it somewhat. Sometime later in life, after university and their first few jobs in the industry, they often see it in a very different light.

I'm already past that. I know that most kids idolize the job without knowing what is it consisting of, without even any knowledge of programming. I worked hard and even got internship on big parts of real projects, so I know what it look like. A "dream job" for me would be receiving money from thin air (investment or something) and watch movie and play games while drinking beer all day long :). A game programming job is an amazing job, much better than most, but it still ask for big efforts and is not always the easiest job. It's simply a job I spent a big part of my life perfecting.

Quote:
Original post by Saruman
I know it isn't QC but you could always apply at Softimage in Montreal which is now a subsidiary of Autodesk, that way you would still be working in graphics, physics, and game pipeline and would look great on a resume to a game company at the same time. Just a thought.

I know a friend working there and sure it's great. If I could get a job there it wouldn't be temporary to gain experience, it's a big company and good to stay. But, I have to move, and it wouldn't be much easier to enter there than the places I tried here.

Quote:
Original post by frob
If you were determined to be at that specific company, you should have networked with them.

I agree, I didn't had much contact with any employee since I left except some rare MSN conversations. I just though they would remember me (well I guess they still do). Anyway, most employees have nothing to say about it, simply the project leads and the human resources. What I regret the most is not becoming good friend with my old project leads and staying most of the time with other employees at my level.

Quote:
Original post by frob
Studios only hire a few people every year

Fortunately, it's not true here. As I said, both game studio here are quite new and hired over 200 employees each over the past two years. I would be surprised if they stopped all of a sudden because, as I said, they still advertise in schools.

Quote:
Original post by frob
That in itself is not video game programming. That is a bit of graphics. There is a great deal more to a game than that.

True, and I sent my resume asking for a 3D programmer job because of that. Still, I worked one of my internship completely on gameplay. I kinda did everything about the weapon system and most character movements in a real commercial production. I also loved it, much more than working on an engine, and it was also easier.

Quote:
Original post by frob
It might surprise you to learn that much intern work is reworked by more senior programmers.

Maybe a bit.. but you would be surprised how long old buggy code can stay..

Quote:
Original post by frob
So there are over 2000 experienced game developers looking for work right now.

Maybe.. but over the world, not here. Most good experienced developers here started right when the studios opened. People in the city searching for this job now are probably under 10 and are people like me fresh out of University and most of them have much less knowledge in games than I have.

Quote:
Original post by daviangel
Anyways, you'll learn sooner or later, unless you are like one of those programmers that can code 10x better than a normal coder

I may not be 10x better, but I can say at least 2x better than most students I had to work with at school. Of course I encountered people during my internships who were real programming genius and I don't think I could ever get be to their level, but also encountered some others weaker.

Quote:
Original post by frob
I"m suprised most colleges don't do a better job at this.

Well I had course on how to succeed in interview and everything, but it was principally garbage... as anything else you learn in school. I'm not surprised at all.

Quote:
Original post by everyone

Yes I know, I need to get another job for now. Still, I'm not dying of hunger enough to go work at turning burgers, that's what I was doing when I was 16-17 (in multiple places). This was the time I was sending 50 resume per days in every place I could find. I sweared back then I would never return into a restaurant again of my life. It would be a total demotion after what I was doing. Working in a tech would be too, since I could have done it simply with a college degree. Working as a programmer-analyst or doing database programming in another place could be great, but in this case the interview would be as hard than the video games one, and I would have trouble answering to "why didn't you return to where you did your internships"?

Also, 20 companies per days?? I don't even know if there's 20 TI companies looking for university programmer in my city. I ought to take them one by one with custom resume for each..

[Edited by - Dunge on January 21, 2009 2:24:29 PM]

zer0wolf

Jan 21, 2009 at 1:41 PM

Quote:
Original post by Dunge
Also, 20 companies per days?? I don't even know if there's 20 TI companies looking for unversity programmer in my city. I ought to take them one by one with custom resume for each..

If you are only looking in your city then you are severely limiting yourself. A willingness to move will afford you a much easier time finding a job.

SwitchIn

Jan 21, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Right now, studios aren't really hiring as much as usual (in fact, you can read about all the layoffs lately). My studio just went through a round of layoffs recently.

2 applications is nothing, especially with your level of experience. Times are a bit rough right now, and I've had senior buddies who were laid off. With 10+ years experience, they still applied to way more than 2 studios. You're putting all your eggs in one basket.

I would seriously recommend you open your mind to relocating. That's probably the biggest thing working against you at the moment. A lot of people are scared of moving somewhere unfamiliar but you just need to get over it.

ace4016

Jan 21, 2009 at 10:43 PM

Quote:
Original post by daviangel
Yes a big part of life nowadays is learning how to find a job time and time again. It's about as important as teaching a person how to hunt for themselves in the old days so I"m suprised most colleges don't do a better job at this

Many colleges, including the two I've attended hold career fairs for networking; have classes on interviewing (including what to wear and not to wear, how to present yourself, etc.), and even hold mock interviews. It's not even their responsibility to do all that either. Colleges/Universities do the best they can in aiding their students to find a job, it's up to the student to use those resources and take advantage of it. College/Uni was a choice; just about everything during and after is pretty much a choice; so it's up to the students to make the choice and get their name out there and such. Apart from mock interviews and just telling students to apply to many places (which they usually do), there's not much a school can do to prepare you for something you just have to experience.

Quote:
Original post by Dunge
Fortunately, it's not true here. As I said, both game studio here are quite new and hired over 200 employees each over the past two years. I would be surprised if they stopped all of a sudden because, as I said, they still advertise in schools.

Sounds like what happened was they filled their positions and don't need any more applicants. Or, they're hurting because of the economy and are decreasing their cap, as well as only looking for those employees who can provide the most for them. New studios become old studios and their hiring patterns change. It just happens.

Maybe you didn't sell yourself well enough, or maybe you just weren't what they were looking for. Kind of hard to figure out what went wrong with the interviews. Either way, it happens and you just have to move on and search for other jobs (most likely in a different area).

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