Hidden variables

This sort of thing has been discussed extensively (if not here, then certainly on other forums), even to the extent of hiding all numbers in an RPG.

If you just take a typical RPG, with a typical combat system, etc, and cover up the numbers, that's nothing but a major annoyance. On the other hand, if you have a game without magic, where one sword is not *so* different from the next (and it's easy to mortally wound an unarmored opponent), where part of the game is acquiring some expertise and finding the best master swordsmith...that's different.

How about relative comparisons with whatever the player's currently wielding? That's probably what the player cares about most, anyway. "The weapon appears slightly less powerful than your claymore."...."The weapon is much more damaging than your vorpal sword, but is slower to swing."...stuff like that, appended to the rest of the description.

Thanks for the comments guys. I'm less interested in ways of making hiding variables work, than the effect it might have on the gameplay itself. I suspect it may change how a player approaches and plays the game - given two identical games, one which hides information from the player and one which does not.

If the player feels like he needs information to make a good decision, then you need to give him that info. Not doing so is the fastest route to the player hitting pause and searching Google. You don't want the player to stop playing your game for even a moment to look up things online, do you?

It's folly to think you can stop players looking things up online; their behaviour out of the game itself is not under your control, whatever you do.

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Original post by kingy It's folly to think you can stop players looking things up online; their behaviour out of the game itself is not under your control, whatever you do.

Some player will always go to gamefaqs but a lot won't as long as you actually tell them how to play the game instead of leaving them guessing why their attacks do no damage or constantly miss.

Regardless, I'm not asking if its a good or bad idea.

I'm asking what effect it might have on the player, in-game. How might she behave differently, having variables hidden from her, by the game?

The effect on the player would mean for the bulk of the game they would be making sub optimal choices, and have to resort creating their own measuring sticks for deciding what equipment to use. Meaning they are spending less time enjoying the game and more time playing deal or not deal to make decisions.

A common scenario would play out as follows:
Okay I found a new sword, my current sword takes 3 hits to kill a goblin. Now I went off to find a goblin to attack with my new sword, and that one took 3 hits to kill as well. So I guess they are about the same. Would I rather continue to use my dented cutlass or change it for the rusty broadsword? hmm.. I'll keep what I've got I guess cause I prefer the image.

Now if I could see numbers I would know that a goblin has 20 hp and the dented cutlass does 6-7 damage and rusty broadsword 9 - 12 over 50% more powerful then may current weapon. I can then use that information to make my choice rather then arbitrary values and guess work

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Original post by kingy I'm asking what effect it might have on the player, in-game. How might she behave differently, having variables hidden from her, by the game?

But that's entirely dependent on what you just said you're uninterested in, namely how it's presented to the player.

Assuming that the player doesn't pause the game and googles which weapon is better, and that he is sufficiently enjoying playing the game the way the developers intended players to play (and those are two really big Ifs)...

When encountering a new weapon, he will likely hold onto both new and old and use whichever weapon he enjoys using in combat more (either for appearances or the way it makes combat 'feel'). Then at the next town, see how much he can get for both weapons and use the weapon's value as the benchmark for which is more powerful. If the newly found weapon is less powerful, it will likely be sold. If it is more powerful, the player will likely try out the new weapon for awhile then decide whether he wants to keep it or revert to his old trusty rusty sword or pistol. If the new weapon provides proper amusement and sufficient battle strength, the player will likely keep both.

I figure this is what will happen because it's what I've done recently when playing Fallout3 and Fable2. As much as I want to inflict maximum damage on attackers I also want to enjoy the combat and the weapon is the main element that affects how the battle occurs.

If this is not the sort of answer you're looking for, tell us specificly what gameplay elements you are wondering about.

No that's interesting. So players will attempt to find some other metric to measure it against, like cost. Which could be defeated if cost is related to how common the item is rather than how effective and could lead to odd choices as a consequence. An interesting thought.

Counting hits to kill would likely be the most reliable method, in the absence of an objective game engined explicit rating system and outside information, I agree.

Why do you want to hide the stats?

I don't, its a thought experiment: what would happen in a game, if they were hidden. Its sometimes useful to turn things on their heads, to better understand them and see things from a different perspective.

I think the experience you'll achieve is to send them online, probably with attendant curses at you. These days it seems likely that the underlying system will be reverse engineered by the many small inputs of fans on forums and whatnot, aided by the almighty, continuously corrected FAQ created by the occasional obsessive-compulsive / dedicated uber-geek player who will try everything against everything.

I saw this happening even back when Diablo 1 was released, and although it robbed mystery from the experience, it was very hard not to powermax by digging into FAQs, if only to figure out what the damned goat shrine was going to do to me.

What if the goat shrine hid its variables (specific effect) but instead had given a general description?

And lastly, what if the information was not available online, for example, if the game randomised everything so no two games were ever the same?

I think you're just trying to find ways to make people not want to play. You're essentially taking away information that most players would want to have... forcing them to spend way too much time researching what stats everything has... and now you're saying all the stats are random per user so that looking up stats wouldn't work...

So you're basically asking how would a player respond to having to deal with the unknown as far as stats are concerned.

My opinion is... they wouldn't like it much at all.

For example... Your character of unknown origins holds the shield of unknown durability and the sword of unknown sharpness... your character swings at an unknown monster using unknown strength and unknown speed. The unknown monster is hit for unknown amount of damage. The unknown monster uses an unknown attack to cause unknown damage to the player, while the player's armor with unknown defense strength provides unknown defense against the attack.

This sort of thing works fine if all of your weapons/enemies/etc are based off of real life. Then people will just use their common knowledge to determine the strength of something or how much damage something would do. Like a metal sword will do far more damage than a wooden one... A sharpened steel blade would cut more severely than a dull iron one. Getting shot in the leg will hurt a lot but probably not kill you.... etc.

If the game has any fantasy elements at all, nobody is going to know what does what and it's going to be confusing and most likely not very enjoyable.

So essentially, discovery does not rate highly in gameplay terms. Interesting.

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Original post by kingy So essentially, discovery does not rate highly in gameplay terms. Interesting.

Discovery doesn't have to mean trial and error.
Claiming that players don't like discovery because they don't want to play as a blind deaf leper is the same as saying that they don't want games to be hard if they don't want to play a game with serious collision detection issues that make you randomly fall through the ground and die.

Thats certainly a strange thing to say, a game with hidden variables would not simulate the player as being a blind deaf leper, in fact, all games use hidden variables to one extent or another.