Happy pride everyone!

Well fuck. I didn't know Texas was still apart of the United States. Yeah, this is bad news. These people should come up here to the Bay Area so the rest of the US can shake that state off like a bad case of...homophobes.

This type of crap makes my blood boil. Hopefully those scumbags will at least lose their jobs for this, but I doubt it. Maybe someday we'll live in a society where we all have respect and compassion for fellow humans.. I doubt I'll live to see it, but someday...

Did anyone actually read that?

Its random police violence, and im the last person to be a fan of it, but dispite their best attempts to paint it as police violence directed against gays, they offer only their opinions of how it is such, rather than any specific action or statement by the police hinting at this.

Why would anyone voluntarily live in Texas?

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Original post by Eelco Did anyone actually read that? Its random police violence, and im the last person to be a fan of it, but dispite their best attempts to paint it as police violence directed against gays, they offer only their opinions of how it is such, rather than any specific action or statement by the police hinting at this.

No, the police weren't shouting 'fag' while they cuffed everyone. But just because they were smart enough to keep their mouths shut while they did it, doesn't preclude the possibility that it was indeed anti-gay. This most certainly wasn't 'random,' it involved 7 squad cars and a van. That's a lot of police officers. This is about as random as if your local SWAT unit (or whatever the equivalent is where you live) kicked in your door looking for drugs & guns. It involved some planning.

The reason nobody here has yet jumped to the defense of Texas isn't because they didn't read the article (if you notice, the OP forces you to read by leaving out any details of its contents), it's because of the extremely conservative bible-thumping stereotyping Texas has garnered itself over the years. A cultural difference you might miss living in a different hemisphere.

A couple of sentences from the police press release are noteworthy.

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... Officers arrived at the Rainbow Lounge to conduct the scheduled inspection. Some officers remained outside while some entered the club. While walking through the Rainbow Lounge, an extremely intoxicated patron made sexually explicit movements toward the police supervisor. This individual was arrested for public intoxication. Another intoxicated individual also made sexually explicit movements towards another officer and he was arrested for public intoxication. A third individual inside the lounge assaulted the TABC agent by grabbing the TABC agent’s groin. He was escorted outside and arrested for public intoxication. The decision was made to release him to paramedics due to his extreme intoxicated state as he was repeatedly vomiting. While dealing with this person, another officer requested assistance from inside the club as he had an intoxicated individual that was resisting arrest. This person was placed on the ground in an effort to control and apprehend. A total of seven (7) arrests were made from the Rainbow Lounge during this inspection. The total arrest count for the entire evening totaled 16....

The police were just so irresistible the drunk gays couldn't keep their hands off of them! How hilarious!!!

I'll bet the "sexually explicit movement" was actually flipping them the bird.

I wonder how different the police response would have been if everyone in the bar was armed with a loaded handgun? I mean, it's gun-slingin' Texas after all!
(Though, alcohol and guns should never be mixed!)

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Original post by ontheheap Hopefully those scumbags will at least lose their jobs for this, but I doubt it. Maybe someday we'll live in a society where we all have respect and compassion for fellow humans..

I'm curious, does respect and compassion for fellow humans include also not alienating your neighbors by behaving in a way they strongly disapprove? People pointed out

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Original post by HelplessFool the extremely conservative bible-thumping stereotyping Texas has garnered itself over the years.

Was opening a gay bar in such a place a sign of respect for fellow humans?

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Original post by Gil Grissom Quote: Original post by ontheheap Hopefully those scumbags will at least lose their jobs for this, but I doubt it. Maybe someday we'll live in a society where we all have respect and compassion for fellow humans.. I'm curious, does respect and compassion for fellow humans include also not alienating your neighbors by behaving in a way they strongly disapprove? People pointed out Quote: Original post by HelplessFool the extremely conservative bible-thumping stereotyping Texas has garnered itself over the years. Was opening a gay bar in such a place a sign of respect for fellow humans?

No, it's not a sign of respect. It's also not a sign of disrespect. We're not talking about a Key West style gay pride parade with half-naked people making out on floats, its a bar that caters to the tastes of a certain customer. I'm quite certain the walls were not made of glass so that everyone outside could watch. It's expensive to move, and just moving won't solve a problem of intolerance. What about respect for them? You know most of them aren't dying to flap their penis in your face right? Being a neighbor is a 2-way street. Remember, a stereo-type is not all encompassing, and not a fact. I'm sorry you took my attempt at sharing a bit of cultural difference with our non-US members that way.

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Original post by Gil Grissom I'm curious, does respect and compassion for fellow humans include also not alienating your neighbors by behaving in a way they strongly disapprove?

No. Any other questions?

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Original post by Gil Grissom Quote: Original post by ontheheap Hopefully those scumbags will at least lose their jobs for this, but I doubt it. Maybe someday we'll live in a society where we all have respect and compassion for fellow humans.. I'm curious, does respect and compassion for fellow humans include also not alienating your neighbors by behaving in a way they strongly disapprove? People pointed out Quote: Original post by HelplessFool the extremely conservative bible-thumping stereotyping Texas has garnered itself over the years. Was opening a gay bar in such a place a sign of respect for fellow humans?

What.

Being respectful and having compassion is important, but taken to an absolute degree like you seem to be suggesting would mean no one could interact with anyone for fear that they would offend someone else on accident. The very existence of homosexuals offends many people, regardless of their proximity. So are you suggesting that we should have compassion for those people and execute gays and lesbians to avoid alienating their neighbors? "Of course not" you'd (hopefully) say.

We cannot have absolute compassion for everyone. At some point we do have to choose who to give greater deference to when arbitrating conduct among citizens. And if the people in that bar kept among themselves, avoided provoking their neighbors by more than just existing and living their lives in the same way the neighbors lived their lives except with the same gender, and otherwise just followed the law then I side with the gay bar. I mean, if I had a neighbor that didn't bath that would offend me, but it doesn't really affect me.

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Original post by Gil Grissom I'm curious, does respect and compassion for fellow humans include also not alienating your by behaving in a way they strongly disapprove?

It depends. If they were driving drunk and putting the community at risk, or beating their wives/children I'd say yes, your neighbours have a right to disapprove. In this case, they were consenting adults having a drink in the company of other consenting adults they find sexually attractive. Now if the neighbours have a problem with that, I say with all due respect,

fuck the neighbours.

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Original post by Gil Grissom Was opening a gay bar in such a place a sign of respect for fellow humans?

Yes. I utterly fail to see how it isn't. If you're gay, it meant you have a place to hang out with people who share your sexuality. If you're homophobic, well, you won't have them damn queers in "normal" bars will you?

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Original post by nobodynews Being respectful and having compassion is important, but taken to an absolute degree like you seem to be suggesting would mean no one could interact with anyone for fear that they would offend someone else on accident.

But it seems that the alternative is to arbitrarily decide that one set of values is better than another, and only care about not offending people with the right set of values.

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Original post by nobodynews The very existence of homosexuals offends many people, regardless of their proximity.

I don't think so, e.g. there aren't many conservative americans flying to Europe to beat up european gay people.

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Original post by nobodynews So are you suggesting that we should have compassion for those people and execute gays and lesbians to avoid alienating their neighbors?

Not really, it seems that there are many places where people generally don't mind their neighbors being gay.

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Original post by nobodynews We cannot have absolute compassion for everyone. At some point we do have to choose who to give greater deference to when arbitrating conduct among citizens.

Yes, my point exactly.

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Original post by nobodynews And if the people in that bar kept among themselves, avoided provoking their neighbors by more than just existing and living their lives in the same way the neighbors lived their lives except with the same gender, and otherwise just followed the law then I side with the gay bar. I mean, if I had a neighbor that didn't bath that would offend me, but it doesn't really affect me.

Yes, but the law is made by people, and is arbitrary in many cases. And it's difficult to decide what affects who. E.g. some counties in the US are dry, even though my neighbor's drinking doesn't really affect me. Also, US citizens are apparently affected by people having sex with people under 18, but in parts of Europe people have no problem with it as long as the younger person is above 16 or even 14.

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Original post by ChaosEngine Yes. I utterly fail to see how it isn't.

Well, somehow this

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Original post by ChaosEngine fuck the neighbours.

doesn't seem very respectful.

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Original post by ChaosEngineIf you're homophobic, well, you won't have them damn queers in "normal" bars will you?

Apparently for many people there this isn't enough, otherwise there wouldn't be violence against gay (assuming this police raid was indeed anti-gay). And it's not a unique situation where you don't care but your neighbors force you to care -- the dry county example comes to mind.

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Original post by Gil Grissom Quote: Original post by nobodynews The very existence of homosexuals offends many people, regardless of their proximity. I don't think so, e.g. there aren't many conservative americans flying to Europe to beat up [or harass] european gay people.

...wut?

(Ok, it isn't Europe but you get the picture. Brackets mine).

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Original post by Programmer One ...wut? (Ok, it isn't Europe but you get the picture. Brackets mine).

Do you have an estimate of roughly how many people go to these pickets? I'd conservatively estimate the number of conservative americans to be 50,000,000; so anything less than 50,000 isn't "many" (less that 0.1%). I believe that a few people might be crazy enough to go from Texas to Minnesota to picket gay funeral, but then again, there are people crazy enough to kill other people, etc. But it seems that the majority of conservative americans don't care as long as it's not next door.

I think there are three types of people in the world, two who I'll define, and a third that is yet to be defined. (Regarding matters of human nature and in response to the conversation that’s developed.)

The first person thinks "If others only see the things the way I see things, understand the things I've come to understand. Realise the truths I've come to realise, they would see that I speak is right!"

The second person thinks "This is what I think and that is what you think. We all think differently. Such is life."

That's the beauty of democracy; it allows peoples of different beliefs to co-exist. Doesn't mean everyone's got to think and believe the same things, it just means we make enough room for each other so we all live comfortably.

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Original post by Gil Grissom Quote: Original post by Programmer One ...wut? (Ok, it isn't Europe but you get the picture. Brackets mine). Do you have an estimate of roughly how many people go to these pickets? I'd conservatively estimate the number of conservative americans to be 50,000,000; so anything less than 50,000 isn't "many" (less that 0.1%). I believe that a few people might be crazy enough to go from Texas to Minnesota to picket gay funeral, but then again, there are people crazy enough to kill other people, etc. But it seems that the majority of conservative americans don't care as long as it's not next door.

Ok, I suppose that example is on the far end of the bell curve. But, find just about any random YouTube video and you'll find a homophobic flame war in no time. The Internet has given a lot of homophobes a voice.

Just because most people aren't going and beating up or harassing gay people on the streets (maybe due to fear of legal repercussions) doesn't mean they aren't offended by the whole idea of gayness.

I can call you a fag or pirate smoker and you'd probably be offended. You know why? Fag is a derogatory word. That's right. There are enough people out there that made the three letters 'f' 'a' and 'g' an insult. That alone should tell you that being gay is considered offensive to a lot of people.

I'm surprised though. You live in the Bay Area and don't even know that even here in San Francisco, hate crimes against gay people happen far too often. I suppose ignorance is bliss, eh.

Just last year four asshats beat and raped a lesbian thinking it would somehow change her orientation: Lesbian's Brutal Gang Rape Investigated in Calif.