How to get off the ground?

Lets start with telling us more about your game, and making a formal post for requesting help on the help wanted board.

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Original post by Tsakara How do we go about turning our ideas into reality? ... We ... are trying to form a company around this game idea we have. ...we just need help finding people who are as passionate about the game as we are in order for it to succeed. We really want this to get off the ground, does anyone here have suggestions on how to go about doing this?

Hey, Fredonia! My old alma mater!
Anyway, here's the thing. In my opinion.
I don't think you're ready to start a company, and besides, a company shouldn't be founded to make just one game. A farther-sighted business plan is necessary, if you're going the startup route. You're trying to do this the hardest way there is. In my opinion.
I think you ought to change your sights a little -- make an indie game, not to make money from it, but to build your portfolios, so you can get jobs or dev contracts. That's my opinion, anyway.
I wrote a bunch of articles on this very topic.
http://www.sloperama.com/advice/lesson29.htm
http://www.sloperama.com/advice/article58.htm
http://www.sloperama.com/advice/article60.htm
http://www.sloperama.com/advice/finances.htm
http://igda.org/columns/gamesgame/gamesgame_Sep08.php
http://igda.org/columns/gamesgame/gamesgame_Oct08.php

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Original post by Developer_X Lets start with telling us more about your game, and making a formal post for requesting help on the help wanted board.

I would but we're worried about our ideas being stolen, currently all we have is the intellectual property, we'd rather not loose that.

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Original post by Tom Sloper Hey, Fredonia! My old alma mater! Anyway, here's the thing. In my opinion. I don't think you're ready to start a company, and besides, a company shouldn't be founded to make just one game. A farther-sighted business plan is necessary, if you're going the startup route. You're trying to do this the hardest way there is. In my opinion. I think you ought to change your sights a little -- make an indie game, not to make money from it, but to build your portfolios, so you can get jobs or dev contracts. That's my opinion, anyway. I wrote a bunch of articles on this very topic. http://www.sloperama.com/advice/lesson29.htm http://www.sloperama.com/advice/article58.htm http://www.sloperama.com/advice/article60.htm http://www.sloperama.com/advice/finances.htm http://igda.org/columns/gamesgame/gamesgame_Sep08.php http://igda.org/columns/gamesgame/gamesgame_Oct08.php

Well, its not just a game, its an MMO, which we'll be distributing digitally to avoid having to whore ourselves out to a big publisher. We do need a better business plan, but we can't really kickstart the business until we get investors onboard with the project.
We're not programmers, we're not coders, we don't have the slightest idea how to make a game, we're not interested in getting jobs for a publisher or developer, we want to start a company to develop an MMO, it might be hard, but hey, CCP got money from their company by selling a board game. We're not interested in working for someone else, one someone elses timeline with an assigned budget, thats how games end up like floppy WoW clones. We're looking for people more then anything, I'm gonna go read the articles, but I'm not sure if they'll really apply to us.

Ahh, the age-old "We have ideas, now how do we get those ideas made into games?" problem.

Let's face it: you aren't going to be able to find people to help you make your game until your game is already mostly completed. Unless you can pay them, of course. Assuming you can't, what this means is that you'll need to learn to implement it yourself. Now, the good news here is that the only major skills you need here are programming and geometry. Art can wait; it's perfectly fine to use developer art as long as you need to. Or you or one of your friends can try learning to make art, as well.

I just saw your most recent post, and I'm going to take the opportunity to be the first to tell you two things that you'll doubtless hear many times in the future:

1) Nobody else cares about your idea. Ideas are, frankly, cheap; it's the implementation that counts. I know you've spent a lot of time working on your ideas, and that work has value, but only to yourself. Everyone else has their own ideas that they're working on making into reality, and moreover they have more ideas than they'll ever be able to finish.

2) Don't start with an MMO. MMOs are, oh, ten times harder to make than any other commercial-quality game. Take World of Warcraft. WoW cost its developers millions of dollars to make, and they had to pay that cost up front. As amateurs with no proven capabilities, there's simply no way you'll be able to martial those kinds of resources.

My personal suggestion would be to take some smaller subset of your game idea and try to implement that. Get it as simple as you can while still representing some important aspect of the game you ultimately want to make. Make it as simple as, say, a 2D fight simulator or something like that. Even that will be a huge learning experience for you, and it'll help you pick your next project with care. Eventually, if you're very hard-working and dedicated, you'll be able to set your sights higher on something that involves multiple players. But it will take years.

While MMO's are harder to make right now a major problem with the gaming industry is that its just pumping out crap redone overdone crap. with the occasional glimps off somthing decent. Programing is the code what makes the game work but it hardly makes the game. What makes a game is the content the mechanics what you DO in the game the players could give a crap about the programing and what code you used so when we started this project we decided that instead of focusing on the programing we would design the actual Gameplay rather then worry about what code to use or what servers to run. (also i fully understand that progaming plays a major part in creating games or else we wouldint be here we jsut decided to make it secodary to gameplay and content design).

As for the suggestion of making another easier game well thats harldy the point were not here to make a 2d flight sim and we dont think its easy dont we are fully aware of what we are getting into but it has been done before so hey why not us :)

Were not here to hear about why we shouldint make this game or what we should do instead and weve gone through the majority of what we are facing and what walls we will need to get over. What we want to know is if there are any suggestion ideas for the next step forward in the direction we will be going or if anyone is intressted in working with us with the skills we lack.

Also i would like to add that the game is hardly and idea anymore what we have now is a blueprint.

thanks o/

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying you shouldn't make your MMO. I'm saying that you shouldn't make your MMO first. MMOs are huge projects, and any large project needs to be broken down into a set of attainable goals. That's why I suggested breaking out a small component that would be feasible to implement as a learning project, and then to go from there to a slightly larger project, and keep building your way up. In a few years you should have a decent portion of your game written in all these little mini-projects, but each will also be able to stand on its own.

I'm saying "To make your game, you need to start by making a very small piece of your game." I'm not saying don't make your game. I'm saying start small. If you start out trying to make the whole thing at once, you will fail. That's a guarantee, speaking as someone who has bitten off way more than he could chew in the past and discovered just how quickly the project got bogged down.

And, with due respect, programming is more creative than you give it credit for. It's more than just implementing the rules the designers come up with; it's implementing those rules, finding the thousands of edge cases and weird exceptions the designers didn't come up with but need to be handled anyway, making certain that the new rules don't conflict with the old rules you've already implemented, ensuring that the new rules are written so that the next new rules can easily be added, testing everything, figuring out how to get everything to work fast enough on the target hardware, and a million other things. These are all hard problems. If you want to make an MMO and you don't give coding the respect it deserves, you will not make it very far at all. Certainly you need a good design to make a game that's fun, but you need a good programmer to make a game that's playable.

"we dont think its easy dont we are fully aware of what we are getting into but it has been done before so hey why not us"

MMOs have been made before, but none of the commercial-level MMOs you've heard of was made by a group of rank amateurs who haven't written any code before in their lives. Hell, even the vastly simpler text-only MUDs weren't made by amateurs (though that would be a reasonable hobbyist project).

Prioritise these:

1) Making good games.
2) Getting your designs made into reality.
3) Making millions of dollars off your ideas.
4) Getting a job in the games industry where you can do (some of) these things for a living.

If #1 is the top priority, then it is a good thing if people "steal your ideas", because you'll have helped the "stealers" cause games to be better.

If #2 is the top priority, then don't worry about "protecting your IP", just make it all public (copyright still protects you from plagiarism...) and try and make an open-source game. After reading your brilliant ideas, programmers/artists can freely contribute to your open project and eventually make it real. No one is going to help you without seeing the ideas first.

Alternatively, if you've got a lot of cash lying around, contract a developer to build the game for you. Once they've reached a prototype milestone, you can use their work to raise more money from investors in order to pay for the rest of the development.

If #3 is the top priority, by all means keep everything secret. Find a few million, hire a lawyer, hire a managing director, start a company, hire some experienced programmers/artists, make a prototype, pitch to a publisher/investors, hire 50 more people, make the game and then (hopefully) profit.

However, as Tom alluded to, if you're going to spend the million dollars required to start a company, you probably want a better business plan. Make some licensed pixar games or whatever crap you have to, until your company is *stable* -- then when you can afford to pay extra staff, use them to build your good game.

If #4 is the top priority, then see #2, then put the open-source project on your resume. Then once you're experienced and have a large network of contact, you can try #3 later.

Well we dont intend on just trying to outright create the game right now right here we will want to start small creating a small glimps into our game through a combat alpha ect.

And while i dont deny that programing is very complicated takes lots of work and is an art form of its own that has no bearing on the gameplay itself sure better programing means smoother gameplay less bugs ect but it has absolutly nothing to do with actualy content story line immersion mechanics you can really create anything you want with programing. But its what you programed that counts.

To the player the programing means nothing and really to me what the player is playing is what counts.

Basicly im saying i care more about the board game that im playing then the cardboard im playing it on. the gaming industry as it stands put so much into the programing but not the gameplay because its easy and that why we havent seen much in the way of innovation in recent years.

Also id like to point out that eve-online was created by a group of guys who started by selling a board game they created to make the money to hire the programmers to make the game they wanted and poof 10 years one of the best mmo's to date.

I'm just wondering how are you going to create your game? I mean, what is your plan here? Are you looking to hire the programmers / artists / sound engineers and whatever else?

Because in that case your going to need some money. How are you going to get that money?

All you have is an idea, and an investor is unlikely to be handing you millions of dollars to make your game just based on your idea. If you are John Carmack at id software, then maybe. He has a proven track record. You unfortunately, don't.

I've been in a similar situation as yours, only the exact opposite. A couple of years ago, I co-founded a company along with 3 other people. We were all programmers with no experience in game development what-so-ever. We had virtually no game ideas, all we had was technical expertise and a passion for games.

Anyway, while I don't have any suggestions per-say, I'd be happy to share some of my experiences when it comes to building a game studio from scratch, and what I've found to be important to consider.

First, some more background on my endeavor. I'll try to keep it at least somewhat short.

In the beginning, it was rough. Really rough. We worked full-time (and then some) for almost a year without any pay. We had virtually no connections with other developers, and only a vague idea about the game we wanted to make.

About six months after the founding, we convinced a 2d/3d artist to work for us. At this point, we had unsuccessfully tried to get funding several times, but every time the people with the money were unsure if we had the qualifications necessary to ship a title. Nonetheless, we sticked with it, and continue to work.

Eventually, we came up with a demo. That's when things started to brighten up. We finally secured some much needed funding, and were able to buy equipment, software licenses and pay the rent. This was a major motivation boost, and a whole lot of progress was made the coming months.

A bit overly confident, we ran out of money after five more months. We were expecting our recently shipped title to cover us, but that didn't quite work out. The next three months were some of the worst months of my life. My savings account was empty and once again we worked without pay. Stress levels were trough the roof. We were desperate to get funding, and we all new that if we couldn't secure it ASAP, we would all have to start looking for new jobs.

At the last moment, we managed to secure the funding we needed.

Now, we have started to grow, we have shipped titles and two titles in the pipeline (one for PS3/PSN and one iPhone title). We have also established some great connections with other game studios, and all in all we're doing pretty well. Once you get momentum going, things are going along really really fast in my experience.

This story is in no way unique, and it's the way this tends to go down. At least that's what I've found to be the case from talking to other start ups.

With that said, here are the things to keep in mind (IMO and in my experience). Some are quite obvious, some may not be:

1. It's not gonna be easy. You WILL have to work long and hard.

2. You're depending on other people if you want to succeed. Recruitment is vital. You need find people who are at least as passionate as you are, and who is willing to work for free or at least cheap.

3. Never underestimate the administrative work load. There are a whole lot of things that needs to be done not directly related to game dev (securing funding, legal stuff, networking etc.). We're still struggling with this somewhat.

4. Start building your company reputation/credibility early on. If people know who you are, it's more likely you'll acheive #2. We had some great help with local press here, which led to quite a few job applications in our inboxes with people willing to work free/cheap. We also traveled around giving talks about game dev and game start ups which aided in building awareness about us at various universities and in other companies.

5. Be flexible. You may need to postpone your huge project and do something smaller instead at first (or in parallel with a huge project) to secure some cash.

6. Use your local community. Is there a college/university nearby offering computer science studies? Try recruiting students for part-time jobs.

7. Do as much as you can with the skills available to you now. Don't wait for other people to come along and solve your problems. If you can't begin the actual development on your own, at least start the company and write up a business plan and start to look for funding.

7b. Teach yourself the skills required to run a business if you don't already possess these skills. Learn how to create budgets, business plans and how to manage the whole thing. Lay out a plan on how the company should be run, how progress will be monitored, and the responsibilities of those involved. I'm tempted to recommend taking evening classes at your local college/university or something similar. While one of things that often identify start ups is the delightful "orderly chaos" they bring, you do need at least some idea on how to run and manage a company.

8. When things get rough, stick with it. It's amazing what can be achieved with a healthy dose of confident and persistence.

9. I have to stick a couple of old clichés in here too: "Prepare for the worst, hope for the best" and "It's a marathon, not a sprint". The last one is vital. Don't get burned out after 3 months. Work "sane" hours. Moving into the office might seem like a good way to get a lot of things done fast, but trust me, it isn't.

With that said, personally, the experiences I've gained trough all this have been priceless. It's absolutely worth it in the long run.
Just keep that in mind when things get rough. ;)

I hope this has been at least remotely useful, I'm sorry that it turned into a small essay..

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Original post by Nemississ Well we dont intend on just trying to outright create the game right now right here we will want to start small creating a small glimps into our game through a combat alpha ect. And while i dont deny that programing is very complicated takes lots of work and is an art form of its own that has no bearing on the gameplay itself sure better programing means smoother gameplay less bugs ect but it has absolutly nothing to do with actualy content story line immersion mechanics you can really create anything you want with programing. But its what you programed that counts. To the player the programing means nothing and really to me what the player is playing is what counts. Basicly im saying i care more about the board game that im playing then the cardboard im playing it on. the gaming industry as it stands put so much into the programing but not the gameplay because its easy and that why we havent seen much in the way of innovation in recent years. Also id like to point out that eve-online was created by a group of guys who started by selling a board game they created to make the money to hire the programmers to make the game they wanted and poof 10 years one of the best mmo's to date.

It seems to me that you have some negative opinions about programmers. Your programmers will be responsible for implementing all of the ideas that you have and filling in all of the little details that your design leaves out. As you have not made a computer game before, your design will not be able to anticipate all of the small but important details that your programmers will have to fill in. The programming and the game mechanics are not two separate entities!

Let me put it this way. Your statements are like saying "We focused on designing the style of the car first and put the mechanics, safety, and aerodynamics of the car in as an afterthought." While the end user might not appreciate the mechanics and would probably care about the design of the car, that does not minimize the importance of the other areas.

Also you have comments about focusing on the programming rather than the design but you seem to not realize the fact that when making a game into a reality as opposed to a design document, you have to deal with real world things like technical limitations and budget constraints. A design is good but if it can not be implemented then it is pointless!

What I am trying to say is that with creating a game, every single piece is important. You need a good design, good programming (that fills in that design), good art, good music, and good managers/buisness people.

Good luck!

Seems like you got it backward. Finding ideas is easy. Ideas are everywhere. Programming and technical expertise is the hard part, not the other way around.

If your concept is too ambitious, it's just not gonna happen. Start simple and learn to program yourself. You can't design a game without understanding the platform. Why do you think some developers only develop for a single platform (Other than financial/political reasons)? The ideas and game mechanics are already all figured out. They just don't have the technical expertise to port their game properly (Look at Valve and the Orange Box on the PS3).

I dont actually have any negative opionions about programmers and as i have said several times now the programming is one of the most important parts of the creation of the game.

What i do have a negative opinion of tho is how in today gaming industry the primary focus is the programming and not what the players will be playing.

example of what i am trying to say:

Dev team A makes a game in which you can run jump turn left turn right shoot a gun and crawl on the floor. it is based in the future and you are doing all this on the surface of the moon the objective kill as many little moon people as possible.

Dev team B makes a game in which you can run jump turn left turn right shoot a gun crawl on the floor. this game is based far in the future in a time when human ccivilization throughout the milky way has fallen into a darkage all the major governments have fallen and it is up to the players to form new governments and create stability again rebuild colonys create new trade routes find lost treasures. within the game you are able to create your own faction (guild) and do what you want with this guild take solar systems and colonize them defend them invade other player faction territory even fight as mercenarys for other player factions. ect


Now both games took some level of programing team B's programing was obviously more complex as there were more ingame mechanics that had to be put in place this much is obviouse.

But the point is, is that one game i would play and the other i wouldint and thats not due to one having superior programing really i have no clue which was written better (we will assume both were written competantly and both games work) i would rather play the second game because its more intressting the story, what i can do in the game, what ships i can fly, what guns i can shoot none of that is decided by the code. Yes you use the code to create those things and have them in game but weather you code a gun or a sword a banana or apple is up to you and your vision of the game if you want a game where you can run up walls and throw banans at people then you will code that game.

If you cant come up with a game idea what are you going to code? if you come up with a game idea your going to code that game. So the first step and most important in the process is deciding what you want to code and if it will be any good.

But programing does allow us the tools to bring all this to life so without it our ideas are NOTHING but all im saying is that it secondary to our game play design.

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Original post by Adassus Seems like you got it backward. Finding ideas is easy. Ideas are everywhere. Programming and technical expertise is the hard part, not the other way around. If your concept is too ambitious, it's just not gonna happen. Start simple and learn to program yourself. You can't design a game without understanding the platform. Why do you think some developers only develop for a single platform (Other than financial/political reasons)? The ideas and game mechanics are already all figured out. They just don't have the technical expertise to port their game properly (Look at Valve and the Orange Box on the PS3).

agreed finding ideas is easy finding good ones is hard if everyone had good ideas then where are all the awesome games?

can you build an airplane without a blueprint?

Now that you have a blueprint to build the plane is it a very good plane mabe its a shitty design that is flawed in many ways.

But you cant start without the blueprint and the blueprint determines what you are building and thus what you end up with.

now ONCE you have a good design the most important thing is building it the best you can with best quality materials and best workmanship so it dosent fallapart mid flight which is just as important But is secodary because you can build a shitty design with the best workmanship and the best materials and itell still be shitty.

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Original post by Tsakara We're to the stage where we want to start working on programming, getting concept art made, starting to build the world. The problem is no one in our group has the foothold in that field. We need to find programmers, artists, coders, everything.

So your group doesn't actually have anything to contribute with? Why should a programmer, or an artist, work on *your* game, when they could be working on *their own* games? That question might sound rude, but it's worth considering. What's in it for the programmer? From the posts in this thread, it's pretty clear that they'll be there as slaves to implement *your* secret ideas, and their creative input is basically nil.

You've also made it clear that they'll be doing all the work. Your job is to tell them what the game should be like, and nothing else. You don't actually have any skills to contribute to the project. So what's in it for them? Why would a programmer want to join you?

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we just need help finding people who are as passionate about the game as we are in order for it to succeed.

Several problems with this one.
As passionate as you are? And yet, you are so ammazingly passionate about it that you haven't even bothered to learn any skills relevant to game development. That's not a very high bar to set. To stand a chance of being successful, your team will have to consist of people who are far more passionate than that -- people who have actually been willing to teach themselves everything they need in order to make the game a reality.

The other problem is how do you expect anyone outside your secret enclave to be passionate about the game, when you refuse to tell them what the game is?

Honestly, be open about your ideas. There are several things that might happen when other people hear about them:

1: Some people will say "that sounds awesome. I'm gonna do the same in my game
2: Others are going to say "that sounds awesome. I'd love to help out".
3: Some are going to say "that's a horrible idea. Here's what you should do instead".

Now, you absolutely need #2 to happen. "amazingly passionate" people do not just come knocking on the door. You need to tell them that there is a game to be passionate about. Which means you need to tell the world about your idea before anyone will even consider joining you.
#3 is inevitable, and so what? In the worst case, you'll ignore their criticism and make the game of your dreams anyway. In the best case, their response will allow you to improve your game. Seems like a win-win situation.

#1 is the one you're so scared of. But think about it. If I were to spy on you and discover all your precious ideas today, then what? Would I be able to make a game as good as yours? Probably not, because while I'd know what you'd written down about the game, I wouldn't know the parts of it that only exist in your heads. I wouldn't have the genius required to flesh it out and fill in the blanks that have not yet been described in text. My game would come across as a poor clone. I might have your design document, but I wouldn't have your inspiration. So even if I had the time, motivation and skills to make your game before you did, I probably wouldn't be able to.
But that's a fairly large 'if'. Most people reading your ideas do *not* have the time, motivation or skills to make the game. As others have tried to tell you, a MMO is a huge undertaking. It's not something people decide to make just because they read this idea someone else came up with on the internet. Blizzard is *not* going to throw away WoW and say "damn, this guy's ideas sound awesome. Let's make that game instead". And hobby developers are not going to say "hey, I saw this idea on the internet, let's make a MMO".

In short, I can't think of a single case where anyone would 1) steal your ideas, 2) make "your game before you did, and 3) make it better than, or as good as, yours.

Sure, you can be as secretive as you like, but the consequence of that is that your game stays a secret. No one hears about it, which means no one is going to want to work on it.

Hence the irony. Everyone believes their idea is the best (even if it's not). So why would they work on your idea when they could be working on theirs?

You think you have a good idea that would revolutionize gaming if only people were willing to make the game. What I'm telling you is everyone thinks like that.

The point is that you can't tell a good idea from a bad one from the onset. Otherwise, you would only see good games out there. Noone wants to work on a bad idea. Even if you think you have it all figured out, you probably don't (no offense). If you want people to take you seriously, you need a track record of delivering good games. Only then will people believe you when you say that you have an awesome idea.

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Original post by Nemississ I dont actually have any negative opionions about programmers and as i have said several times now the programming is one of the most important parts of the creation of the game. What i do have a negative opinion of tho is how in today gaming industry the primary focus is the programming and not what the players will be playing. example of what i am trying to say: Dev team A makes a game in which you can run jump turn left turn right shoot a gun and crawl on the floor. it is based in the future and you are doing all this on the surface of the moon the objective kill as many little moon people as possible. Dev team B makes a game in which you can run jump turn left turn right shoot a gun crawl on the floor. this game is based far in the future in a time when human ccivilization throughout the milky way has fallen into a darkage all the major governments have fallen and it is up to the players to form new governments and create stability again rebuild colonys create new trade routes find lost treasures. within the game you are able to create your own faction (guild) and do what you want with this guild take solar systems and colonize them defend them invade other player faction territory even fight as mercenarys for other player factions. ect Now both games took some level of programing team B's programing was obviously more complex as there were more ingame mechanics that had to be put in place this much is obviouse. But the point is, is that one game i would play and the other i wouldint and thats not due to one having superior programing really i have no clue which was written better (we will assume both were written competantly and both games work) i would rather play the second game because its more intressting the story, what i can do in the game, what ships i can fly, what guns i can shoot none of that is decided by the code. Yes you use the code to create those things and have them in game but weather you code a gun or a sword a banana or apple is up to you and your vision of the game if you want a game where you can run up walls and throw banans at people then you will code that game. If you cant come up with a game idea what are you going to code? if you come up with a game idea your going to code that game. So the first step and most important in the process is deciding what you want to code and if it will be any good. But programing does allow us the tools to bring all this to life so without it our ideas are NOTHING but all im saying is that it secondary to our game play design.

I agree with you that the design is important but what I disagree with is the statement "i would rather play the second game because its more intressting the story, what i can do in the game, what ships i can fly, what guns i can shoot none of that is decided by the code"

Actually that is ALL decided by the code. A programmer has to program all of these extra features and all of these extra mechanics. The programming to go from game A to game B is not trivial in the least. Your budget might not allow you to program the extra mechanics for game B and your target platform might not have the resources to let you program all of these mechanics either. You have to take these considerations into account when making a design... While these ideas are good they could add months to the dev cycle or increase the budget by another hundred thousand dollars.

A good design and a good designer does not use every feature they possibly can... Instead they reduce and distill the design to the fun elements to fit the budget and the time frame. Also some of the ideas simply might not work in application when in a real game. Ideas can sound great on paper but the implementations of those ideas might not be as fun as they sound.

Good luck.

Simply put someone in the position to actually "steal" an idea has the resources to use their own, or are working with/under a bunch of other people.

i think some of you got the wrong idea about our litte "super secret special project" :)


Right so first thing is this was a what do we do next post not a we need programmers come join us post or we would have added some info about the game anyone who is helping will be filled in on our design. And anyone involved will be more then welcome to take part in the creative side of things. if there is a better way to do somthing or a useless mechanic or a better idea why not?

next as ive quickly learned this is a very programmer heavy website as i should have probably realized so bias is very heavy here not that thats a bad thing really.

next point is were here not trying to dispute if our idea is good or if its the best or why is it better then the next persons its now that we have this design now that we have this game how do we start getting it made can we find programers on this site that would be intressted in doing this stuff what sites would be good for that if not ect.

and we do have alot to contribute we will be controlling the games development the design we have on paper will guaranteed need to be reworked revised and changed that where we come in. not to mention you kno just the small tiny contribution it was to create the game mechanics game economy combat system skill system backstory balacing issues between the class types sorting through thousands of possible game mechanics and finding the ones that fit. and actually we have some concept art and weve even worked out the look the feel of the game environment ships armors ect. so yes nothing to contribute :)