Game Concept critisism needed.

Dang, that's creepy. It was a little bit of a letdown to find out that it was a 2D survival game. The information flowed very well, though, in my opinion.

I can't confidently say much about the "witty" headings. My suspicion is that they are good for grabbing the attention of the reader, but the reader will almost immediately want to see some substance without the flash.

My biggest reservation is that I think a concept that powerful deserves a deeper medium than a 2D strategy/survival game. You could write a novel with that kind of thesis. I probably wouldn't read it, since I don't usually go for that kind of creepy thing [smile], but I can still tell that the idea has a lot of power and potential. "One more drop in a sea of claws and teeth"... Maybe you should have been a fiction writer!

I can't speak for a producer, but it certainly grabbed my attention, and I would be interested in seeing exactly how you intended to execute this concept.

Thanks. I swear my other stuff should be nowhere near as creepy. The reasons this is a top down 2d game is that way, I could have the player in a restricted area without invisible walls. Players would likely be more accepting of screen = playing field with such a view. It could work as an isometric view, but the player would always have a blind spot behind them.

Thanks for the complement about the fiction. I was hoping to figure out a way to give the player back story information as they gain allies, such as the origin of the hatipet and other ways they have tried (and failed) to contain them.

I was thinking of a FPS, actually. And you asked for criticism...

I quite like the aesthetics of the concept, makes me think right to Vic Davis' (not yet released) Solium Infernum, for that sort of Dante-Bosch, um, infernopunk?

If infernopunk isn't an aesthetic genre yet, it should be.

As for the gameplay:
It sounds like you're pushing tower defense toward an RTS, and partly going with the "hero unit" gameplay of Defense of the Ancients or Demigod. This is a good area to explore to build an RTS with more player identification with the/a character and without insane amounts of micromanagement.
So it sounds promising; You should make a prototype!
And:
- Can the player win? -- how?
- If not, why do they play? (Not to say I disagree with an unwinnable game, I just think you need to be able to explain/defend this design decision)

As for the section titles:
Use descriptive section titles that tell what it is you will be talking about, "Perspective", "Resources", etc. to make an easily readable document, then use the thematic, descriptive lines as sub-titles or quotes to retain the flavor you are evoking.


As for whether it works as a professional game concept document that a producer would want to see, I have no idea at all. I wonder if you should not mention technical considerations (what is the target platform? [edit: Oh, I see there you said Flash. Right!]) and commercial considerations (what is the target market?).

I'm gonna say straight up, because I'm getting a little fed up.
'survivor type' games are just lazy.
why not do a little work and give the player something to aim for.

your idea sounded interesting until I came upon the mention of it being a 'survivor type' game. then I stopped reading.

let me tell you about a real survivor type game. resident evil. silent hill. these are well made games. they have a beginning middle and end. they are scripted to give you the feeling of being overwhelmed and to make your emotions overflow. they are carefully crafted with love and attention.

if I ever get wind that a game I am playing has no end, I get the stink of unfinished, of lazy, of futility.
if the designer can't be bothered to finish the game, why should I bother to play it.

this is the kind of attitude that expects the player to make their own fun. to make their own goals. sorry, that's your job.

apologies for the rant. it's not just you. you're just at the top of the pile.
please dilute accordingly.

When you think about it most of the early video games were 'survivor' type games...Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Robotron, Space Invaders, Galaga, Asteroids, Joust, Frogger, Defender, etc...they didn't have programed endings. Just repeat over and over speeding things up in the process...Even puzzle games like Tetris.

Absolutely nothing wrong with them.

Only thing I see questionable about KnTenshi's concept is the balanceing factor. As in how does the Hatipet keep the pressure on the player once he starts raising his units levels...well that and how does the player give orders if they are a onscreen character. Do they have to walk over and make direct contact with the units? Clicky with the mouse like in a RTS? Can/will units still take/follow orders if they are outside the reach of the players light?

I like that you can be creative in the game. It sounds like it will be a bit like Gauntlet with building structures and leading minions. Very interesting gameplay IMO.

Very few action games allows you to be creative, so that is a big plus, in that it will keep the players hooked longer, and that it differentiates itself from other games on the market.

I would improve the narratics in the beginning though. A bit too corny and not high enough quality. But apart from that, a solid idea IMO.

@dbaumgart
There is no ending, but you are right. Currently, I have no incentives to keep playing. I could implement a points-scoring method and have the push be for a high score.
Another thing is I could have intermediate rewards, such as the bits of backstory I mentioned earlier. Each time the player gains a new ally or constructs a special unit (such as a Tseobekekhi/Living Monument or a Mukhila/Choir), a new piece of history can be unlocked. But even that would only interest certain people and only on the first playthrough.
Alternatively, I could make a Normal Mode that lasts ten minuets, and an Endless Mode for seeing how long players could get past that.
I'll admit, one of my biggest problems is getting the player to play this game longer than a couple minutes without feeling let down.

@tremault
Though I believe you gave incorrect examples (Resident Evil and Silent Hill are Survival Horror games which focus on strong, creepy atmosphere and the occasional jump scare. The only survival part is that they -rightly- don't have the player bleed ammo from every orifice. They instill a fear of the common run-and-gun mentality and "Oh God, I just ran out of ammo and that thing could punt me across the level!".), I do agree with your gripe of fighting unending hordes as a way to never need to make some sort of ending. I could tell you that my game was not intended as such, but the means can't justify the ends. I don't really want to give this game a preset structure because I want the game to be slightly hectic. I'd rather not have the game end up similar to other defense games where the player gets set waves and cool down and repair time. For me, this gives the game too much of a constructed feel, such as "You have won world 1-a! Welcome to World 1-b! ... You have won world 1-b! Welcome to World 1-c!, etc.".

@MSW
My current design on making upgrading attack either useless or overpowering is by making each attack do a random amount of damage based on the attack stat (1 to Attack). But I also fear this would frustrate some players because they won't insta-kill the normal Hatipet with a high attack stat.

And I should have stated this earlier, but the player doesn't control units or allies. They run on their own A.I. scripts. I was thinking of implementing a 'Guard this' command, but other than that, they run on their own.

i understand.
how about certain objectives.
it can be free-flowing. the player can hit the objectives at any point, in any order.

perhaps the game can have an ending of sorts when all objectives are met.
even tetris had an ending.
the ending of sorts can be made as an unlockable and may not need to disrupt gameplay. and the player can either choose to finish the game to get their reward or they can continue and continue to increase their progress more.
of course, there would need to be a purpose to this, so I feel online community type features would be important such as scoreboard, ability to either save the game state for others to peek at, or take snapshots etc.

Actually I think this can work fairly well with an ending. If you continually ramp up the waves and enemies, it seems to me that there is a point where increasing the difficulty that much more is somewhat meaningless, i.e. physically/logically etc impossible to win. Also, the story seems to be set up for an ending. Do you drive them back, or succumb to evil? One ending is the losing ending, the other the winning.

One thing left unclear is movement in the game. With an "unrestricted" space, it would seem like as opposed to tower defense style games, you are going to actually be moving in some direction and exploring the space. You use the light sources to try and find other npcs to aid you in your "quest", or find other things. It would be a wasted opportunity to not have things hidden in the dark for you to find, because then I don't really see the point of using the light in this way at all.

The game progression could be a moving from one place to another, with very frequent stops to handle the waves, sort of a slowly transporting caravan defense, rather than tower defense. At some point, you have pushed back the Hatipet to their stronghold/birthing place what have you, and the final act of the game is to destroy them once and for all.

Different things could happen mid-game which prevent you from moving further, or even begin to push you back, as unstopable waves force you to flee back to your strongest defense, as they quickly go through all of the many barriers you have been placing as you moved forward.

There is a lot of potential in this concept, I feel like the design is still a bit too hazy on some details and leaves a bit too much open to interpretation (I'm not certain any of the responders had the same vision of the game as you intended to convey)

Good luck!

I have all sorts of thing to say about this concept so I will break it down into semi-related but clearly relevant parts...

First off I really like the direction you are going with the gameplay and overall theme. You appear to be a capable writer because your first paragraph "A Prince In Hell" caught my attention and I didn't even know, or really care at the time, what the gameplay was like.

While reading your second paragraph "Concept" I immediately felt I needed to encourage you to describe what makes your Tower Defense gameplay interesting and not just newly skinned. After reading on I found that you have a few concepts that really do take the classic Tower Defense genre in a different direction. This includes the use of light, sounds and interactive elements on the maps. That basically means you deflected a pretty obvious flaw.

One reason why this concept hit very close to home for me is because I started working on a similar RTS / Tower Defense hybrid not long ago. In my original concept I too felt I could get away with an endless "Survival Type" mode. However, most of people I discussed this with wanted to have a progressive game with some plot. This does not mean you have to follow the same advice, but clearly from your first paragraph you are capable of writing an interesting plot. See if your game could benefit from this.

KnTenshi's Questions

1) I would absolutely like to see the Treatment and GDD for this concept. Keep in mind however that while I, or other Producers/Developers, may be interested in learning more we may not find it appropriate for our companies time. So when your presenting this to someone keep in mind what sort of things they already make and are capable of making.

2-3) What you have written thus far is pretty solid for an mind catching teaser. A few things that I have been taught for these sort of high concept presentations are...

- Don't be afraid to relate your game to an existing game. It wont make you sound like a copy cat, it will only help the people your presenting it to understand it better.

- While it is a good idea to relate your product to an existing product, it is also very important to describe why your product will be better. Better graphics, better story, refined or new gameplay mechanics etc.

- We are designing and developing game, so make sure you explain the gameplay. Story, Characters, Races, Factions, Spacial Attacks, Monsters, Cut Scenes are not as important in this document as "how the game is played".

- Don't be too granular with your presentation, cut to the chase and be clear.

- Know your audience, who are the people playing the game and who are the people you are trying to sell the idea too. If the people your selling the idea too are a bunch of number crunching investors you might want to include information regarding the business plan. If the consumer is 3 to 6 year old Spanish boys with no arms, you might want to explain that.

I think you did a pretty good job of this, but you could do a little more than short paragraph in each section.

4) YES. Any opportunity to display thoughtfulness and creativity is a big plus! And in this case for me it really worked.

5) For the most part your post flowed pretty well. I think after you write your sections you may want to toy around with the order and even test it on a few people. You can also consider changing the order based on who you are showing.

CONCLUSION

I could not agree more with the others that this game in top down 2D would not do it justice. Isometric would be great and full 3D would be ideal. Great job so far, I look forward to hearing what you do next and even reading the treatment/GDD!

Please send me a PM if you have any direct questions.

Cheers!

Minor nitpicky point; something I always impress on my students.
Most of the time you stayed with present tense pretty well, but I saw at least one instance of future tense.
The consistent use of present tense (without deviating into future tense except when absolutely unavoidable) has a subtle and powerful effect on the reader, making him see the game as ... a game. Not just an idea.
I recommend you turn any instances of future tense into present tense.

Quote:

Original post by Tom Sloper Minor nitpicky point; something I always impress on my students. Most of the time you stayed with present tense pretty well, but I saw at least one instance of future tense. The consistent use of present tense (without deviating into future tense except when absolutely unavoidable) has a subtle and powerful effect on the reader, making him see the game as ... a game. Not just an idea. I recommend you turn any instances of future tense into present tense.

You did it again Tom! You convinced me I need to visit your website more often!

He is absolutely right.

Ok, I've updated the game concept with some of the suggestions posted.

***************************************************

A Prince in Hell

An eerie wail breaks the calm of Gaihinom. Another Hatipet has been born. One more drop in a sea of claws and teeth. You were born as a new line of defense against these beings, given the gift of light at creation. Light that pierces the eternal darkness of Gaihinom. But it is that same light that draws the Hatipet to you. The screaming becomes louder and more distinct until a flicker of movement passes into the light. A single Hatipet steps into the light, ragged and flesh still torn from it's 'birth'. It winces in at the light but dashes at you, reaching out with a bestial longing to tear you to shreds. Two more join in from another direction. All the while, the screaming grows louder and closer.

Concept
A Prince in Hell is flash defense game such as Medieval Rampage and Dead Frontier. The overarching goal is to survive. There are two gameplay modes. The first is Frontier Mode, where the player must survive for ten minutes until the surge of enemy stops and the player can clean up those that remain and view the ending. The second mode is Wasteland Mode where the Hatipet never cease. In this mode, the player is given points for how long he is able to survive.

A Prince in Hell is a game where you defend yourself from an unending tide of the damned from the darkness with the help of constructable walls and units.

Come into the light...
A Prince in Hell, unlike most other games, does not give the player an omnispective of the game field. The player can only see what is in the light, which starts out as a small ring around the player. As the game progresses, the player can add more light - either by increasing their own light source at the cost of health regeneration or by adding structures that can produce their own light.

They can not be contained or reasoned with. Only held back.
The Hatipet are not the only crazed wanderers. Failed past incursions have long produced the Hatemshugau - one of the player's own kind destroyed and reformed as insane and bloodthirsty as those they once fought against. Dread rumors even speak of lights within huge masses of Hatipet, as though one of the great Hataor have been converted to their side.

Built on another man's back...
To do most anything in the game, the player needs to gather resources. These resources come from the fallen bodies of the enemy. But the player must be quick, for the damned won't stay down forever.

We build our own four walls.
Another difference for A Prince in Hell is that the player is given no predefined structures to defend or help funnel the enemy into certain areas. The player must build these themselves. Different types of walls have their own costs and defenses. If a wall becomes damaged, the player can repair them at the cost of using more resources.

Great, it can walk. So what else can it do?
The player can also build simple units that can help the player accomplish some task, such as defeating the enemies, gathering up the bodies, or repairing the walls. With the help of others, the player can create more fine tuned or stronger units. Eventually, the player will even be able to give these units lights of their own.

You aren't as alone as you think.
When the player amasses enough resources, others may join him. These others can be used to help build more complex structures and units as well as increase the maximum amount of resources. But be careful. If one dies, their benefits go with them.

We tell the tales of the past through song.
As the player gains more allies, a new song is added to the pause menu. Songs are also added when the player constructs a certain type of unit for the first time, thus reminding him of when he was taught how to craft them. Each song acts as a piece of the game's backstory and is accompanied by the lyrics and a sketchy memory image of the events the songs recount.

Everyone learns in time.
A Prince in Hell has elements of leveling up. All units allied with the player gain experience towards a level up each second. Each level, the player or ally can increase a stat, such as attack or speed. Any unit with an attack can also gain experience by killing an enemy. Each allied unit that gains a level will randomly increase it's stats, but only those that it started with. A melee born Mtayel will never gain a ranged attack, for example.

The first right was that of self will.
All units, constructed or gained, have their own will. They will do as they see fit within their power. However. Any units built by the player have an air of respect for their creator and follow general orders, such as "Protect this Unit" or "Hold this ground". These orders can only be given when the unit can see the player. This means either the unit must be in the player's light or the player in the unit's, whichever is larger.

Screaming, wailing, then sudden silence...
The sounds of the game set the mood of the game. An example of this is that there is no music during the actual gameplay. If there are enemies on the map, certain screams or howls play based on the number of enemies. If there aren't any enemies, then the only sounds are the movements of the player and allied units. While in the game start menu, a low, howling wind plays and every so often, distorted chimes or a wail play to incite both a feeling of loneliness and mild dread as to what is making those sounds.

To look down on the world.
The game is a top-down two dimensional game. Everything is seen from an overhead view. The graphics reflect the infernal setting. The constructable walls have reliefs of distorted faces, limbs and even entire bodies. The Mukhila appear to be four beings bound together, with a central purple flame shining a weak, flickering light.

***************************************************

Here are some new questions.

6. Does this give a more descriptive view of my game and am I still missing something for the Game Concept?

7. Is using in-universe names appropriate or would it be better to translate most of these terms (Mtayel/Walker, Mukhila/Choir, Hataor/Light one/Fallen)?

8. Can you think of any better way to say "for example" in that this is a sampling of the whole?

9. Would a player become annoyed by a "To be continued in another game." as an ending (explained below)?

Now that I've had some time to think about this, I have come up with a way to have this expanded into the 3-d realm. However, I would still like to keep this game as is - or thereabouts. So I would like for this game to lead up to the second, 3d version. Once the player wins the Frontier Mode, the ending screen implies that this was all to build a new fortress city.
The second game, which will have more buildings and units (like every sequel should), would be more RTS-like. The player would be tasked with building a fortified city that would rival even Pandemonium, all the while, sill under attack by Hatipet. This idea is still fresh and new, so not much is concrete.

What are your ideas on this?

This is an improvement but I think you could combine some of the the topics you have and clarify others. "Come Into the Light" and "To Look Down on The World" could really be combined to describe as a whole the perspective of the user. As many of use have pointed out you have a very creative way of writing and story telling. However in "We Tell the Tales of the Past Through Song" you started to explain how you would utilize your creative writing skill in the game, but then kind of cut it short.

At this point I would highly suggest you identify the primary subjects you need to define about your game. Here is a sample list I have created based on what I have read and what I think should be added...

- Opening Paragraph
This can be mostly what you already have, but I would include a little more of the gameplay. In all this should catch the readers attention.

- Controlling and Managing the Character
Here you should describe the perspective of the user, the method in which they control the character(s) such as with a Mouse or Remote and in short what they are capable of such as irradiating protective light, building walls, collecting resources etc.

- User / Character Progression
You mention how each of the characters can collect items and level up to progress, explain this here. More so, explain what drives the users progression other than just increasing the character's power and capabilities.

- The Plot and How it is Told
Here you should give use a taste of your story as you have describe already and then explain a little more about the "Songs" that the user collects to further understand the story in the game.

- Unique Features
Your use of audio to set the mood as described in "Screaming, Wailing, then Sudden Silence" is great so go into this a little bit more.

Don't forget to relate to other game that utilize similar features and ideas, more importantly don't forget to explain why this game will do it better. In "They Can Not Be Contained or Reasoned With. Only Held Back." it looks like you have another cool idea, but it is sort of irrelevant for the teaser your writing.

KnTenshi's Questions

6) Answered mostly above.

7) There are a few guidelines I have learned regarding naming conventions and when to and not to use them. The most important guideline is to make sure the names are easy enough to read and pronounce aloud. "Hatipet" isn't too bad but Hatemshugau and Mtayel is a bit rough. I am not sure what language this is but if you really want to keep the name try making them more phonetic by removing silent letters and refining them. Another guideline I was taught was to avoid renaming things that already have common names. Like don't rename a Zebra a Zevra (shame on you Blizzard) just to be different. I see how changing Mtayel to Walker would be a little lackluster, but could you get away with "Mayel" or "Shade Walkers" just to mix it up?

8) I think the term "for example" does the job rather well I am not sure what you are trying to achieve by finding another way to say it?

9) Having "To Be Continued..." at the end of a story is not terrible, in fact this is how most television series and other episodicals get people to come back in the next chapter. What's important is how you choose to do this. Don't introduce a single major conflict to the view and then just end it before anything gets done. You can have an overall plot "We must stop the evil and save our people" but have sub plots that drive the moment to moment experience of the first game. You could have your first game simply be the exodus of the survivors out of the ruined lands to a mountain where legend has it a great city exist that will protect them. Have the character battle their way only to find the mountain is barren and all hope may be lost. But wait, there is more to the legend, the mountain is where the great city will be erect and these survivors are the ones who are foretold to do it. Not a brilliant plot but I hope you get my point. Just make sure that the user feels like they still accomplished something in the first game, like defeated a villain and saved a town but he was only a captain and the leader of the bad guys still lives.

You might consider working on writing everything you know about this game down and create a High Concept document that you can draw from for a presentation. You have a lot good ideas but might be unsure what is important to say and what is for sure going to occur in the game. I think you have received enough thumbs up from the people here.

I've skimmed your concept outline, and I think its presentation could be improved. Instead of using quotation-like taglines, you should use concrete headings for each section. The whole structure of the document is nebulous and hard to follow unless you put some structure in place. The taglines can be used as subtitles for the headings. This way, you signpost for the reader what they are reading about, and then grab their attention and set the tone for that section. If you put proper headers in, you'll find yourself describing the different aspects of the game in more detail as well.

To answer your questions:

1. I've avoided reading and replying to this topic for a while now because of what I mentioned above. :P This isn't personal preference: a producer has only so much time to dedicate to your treatment and if it isn't well-structured with a logical flow, it's likely to be scrapped - no matter how good the concept is.

And game producers typically don't accept treatments from external sources anyway. :) The games industry is very different from film.

2. I explained this above, too. Define the structure of your document better. Each section should describe a specific aspect of your concept. At this point, each section lacks focus. For example, your "Built on another man's back" section vaguely describes "resources", then the topic is dropped until a few sections later in "You aren't as alone as you think" (which doesn't suggest to me anything related to resources).

3. If you were submitting this to a producer, you'd have to give a much more detailed description about the basic mechanics of the game. Sure, you mention it is a tower defense game, but if they don't know what those are then they'll be confused for the entire document.

7. It's appropriate as long as you include an explanation the first time they are mentioned. For a longer document, a glossary of terms would be appropriate.

9. A number of games do this (the excellent Digital Devil Saga two-part series come to mind), and it's no problem - as long as the ending of the games is satisfactory.