Ouya

Personally, I am extremely interested in seeing how this plays out, and how the big console companies will react, yet I can't help but feel very doubtful about the whole thing.

First of all, I've never heard of the people behind it until yesterday. I'm not even 100% convinced they won't just take all the money and walk away without producing any hardware.

Even if they do release it according to plan, I just find it hard to imagine there being a lot of games worth playing on the platform. It being so open is almost a recipe for piracy from day 0.

This article covers most negative points really well, IMO.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/IanFisch/20120711/173901/OUYA_the_Android_console__naivete_at_work.php

I really want to understand the reason for Ouya's incredible popularity so far (people are basically throwing their money at it in huge flocks).

Is it really the naivety of the general public at work?

We had a chat recently over IRC about this. My thought was "what are they bringing in that adds value?" I was rather wtf with their demo video, which showcases Shadowgun by Madfinger Games being played on a TV with a game controller.

I bought an Asus Transformer Prime back in late April. It has got a Tegra 3 chip. I plugged the TF Prime into my Asus display with HDMI and played Shadowgun on it, with a game controller, in nVidia Stereo 3D, from my home couch. I have added game controller support to my 3D engine, which works since Android 3.2.1. HDMI output works without any programmer intervention. Needless to say, I felt like "dude, it's all there already, what is Ouya doing here exactly?"

Are they raising 1M to develop a new Android-compatible game controller with a touch pad? Or to effectively bring in a TF Prime replacement for $99 instead of ~450EUR that the TF Prime cost? Or to develop a custom gaming controller/game programming API/SDK on top of Android? Or to raise developer and user awareness on the "Android for TV" option?

As a programmer, I would hate to have to do any Ouya SDK-specific programming, be it related to game controllers, TV output or custom marketplaces. To me, this feature is already here and works.

*shrugs*

A million raised in less than half a day is ludicrous. I'm not sure how this even happened. Could it be that the name, "Ouya", is some sort of subconscious message? Ouya, Ouya... Ouya... brb, pledging $250.

I can see this bombing heavily
I see the main guy behind it designed OLPC & we know how well that went (not)

Even if there's only one good game on the system, $130 for the specs in the box plus 2 gamepads is damn good value to me.

I pitched in, because it looks like a fun toy to hack around with, and it's the same price as a new Xbox game (new release PS3/360 games are up to $120 here -- usually double whatever the US price is, despite parity in exchange rates...).

This article covers most negative points really well, IMO.
http://www.gamasutra...ete_at_work.php

1. The Android Game Library is Barely Compatible with the OUYA (existing android games suck)
2. The Android Game Library is Extremely Lackluster (existing android games suck, again)
3. Indies Will Not Fill the Void (all indie games suck?)
4. The Userbase Problem (no devs without customers without devs)
5. Some Things Just Don't Scale (no Xbox live)
6. Games are Moving Away From the TV (portible is where it's at fool!)
7. Android Specs Move too Fast (hardware will be outdated before it's out)

That guy sounds a little cranky, not sure what his beef is, but his points don't make sense to me. Seems he's missed the point.
1/2) Yes, there's no Ouya games yet, congrats on the obvious one. We'll come back to this with (4).
3) He presents the straw-man view that consoles have to be about AAA games, and that simpler indie games simply don't count. I got the impression that this console was supposed to be more like a stand-alone XBLIG, not an ElectronicArtsivision mainstream market place. So he's off-target here.
4) Yes, this is a concern. It may be that there's no good games on it, taking away the reason to buy one, taking away the reason to make good games for it. It's likely that this won't turn into a big money-maker for game developers (let's hope it does, for our sake), but as a $100 toy, it's comparable to just a single AAA game purchase. I'm paying $100 just to have a media box under my TV, because I don't have any kind of 'computer' hooked up to it.
Also -- they've already made almost 30,000 "first day" sales without any marketing, which is about 10% of what the 360 did with it's how-ever-many-hundred-million-dollar marketing campaign, so there will be a decent (if still niche) install base for the day-1 developers to take advantage of.
5) This is just point #4 again, but this time about internal development by Ouya themselves -- he's saying that investing in the development of an XBL clone by them would likely not be profitable. That's Ouya's problem to deal with; I assume they've got a business plan together by this point... And anyway, an XBL clone isn't even required -- what they're making is an AppStore clone.
6) It's obviously not aimed at people that are happy to watch TV on their laptops and play games on their phones; it's aimed at people who want a box under their TV. Yes this may be a niche market these days (though the development of the 720/PS4 shows that MS/Sony don't think so), but the record breaking sales show that the demand is certainly there... Again, he's treating Ouya as a mainstream competitor, not a niche device, which makes all his points into straw-men...
7) The specs are outdated AS OF TODAY, not as of release. This thing is obviously not designed to compete with the 360/PS3 on hardware stats -- they're open about the low-power specs. So... It's like someone told this guy that Ouya was the new Xbox720, and is shooting it down based on that false assumption?

until I -know- i can purchase one and have it delivered to my house, this is just the Phantom 2 to me: A lot of promises and nothing tangible. Developing hardware platforms is not the same as developing software. period. Also, the fact they offered no credible proof of having actually done hardware platform development before is another significant tell that its either entirely fishy or more hope than talent. Also, their front-man is a designer... not a hardware designer, an aesthetic designer... biiiiig difference.

Do i wish them luck? Yes.

Do i want this to succeed? Yes.

Do i think they have more than a snowball's chance in hell to succeed? No.

I'm worried about amateur businesses on kickstarter. This is a big business that needs money.
-They have no website
-They seem to have funding based on the video with people working but don't mention it or show anything on a website about jobs or business contacts
-They only asked for 900K? If Kickstarter takes (20 or 30% dont recall what they take), that leaves them with say 750K. That is not much money at all considering you need manufacturing. By the time this thing comes out they will need to be mass producing it in a factory somewhere and buy all those Tegra 3 chips and make sure they can get a good supply of them. To hire a software engineer costs roughly 100K when you include salary +benefits + overhead(space/equipment).

So they either have/had really good financial backing in which they shouldn't need 750K, or they have little backing and thought somehow that 750K was going to be enough to run a legit business as big as the console industry is. I'm really curious to see how this works. Their ETA is march 2013, we have no idea how far they really are, but they don't get the kickstarter money till August, that gives them 7 months. So they have to be done probably in 4 or 5 to start manufacturing these things. Considering they didn't really show anyone plugging in a prototype and playing it, it looks like a mess to me. All we saw was shadowgun on a big screen. That could have just been an android phone plugged into a TV.

It is a hard one for me. If they didn't get 750K were they really not going to do the project or was kickstarter just publicity? Who knows.

-They have no website

This part surprised me most. I went a googling for more info when it was announced and was super surprised that I found nothing.

We had a chat recently over IRC about this. My thought was "what are they bringing in that adds value?" I was rather wtf with their demo video, which showcases Shadowgun by Madfinger Games being played on a TV with a game controller.

I bought an Asus Transformer Prime back in late April. It has got a Tegra 3 chip. I plugged the TF Prime into my Asus display with HDMI and played Shadowgun on it, with a game controller, in nVidia Stereo 3D, from my home couch. I have added game controller support to my 3D engine, which works since Android 3.2.1. HDMI output works without any programmer intervention. Needless to say, I felt like "dude, it's all there already, what is Ouya doing here exactly?"

Are they raising 1M to develop a new Android-compatible game controller with a touch pad? Or to effectively bring in a TF Prime replacement for $99 instead of ~450EUR that the TF Prime cost? Or to develop a custom gaming controller/game programming API/SDK on top of Android? Or to raise developer and user awareness on the "Android for TV" option?

As a programmer, I would hate to have to do any Ouya SDK-specific programming, be it related to game controllers, TV output or custom marketplaces. To me, this feature is already here and works.

*shrugs*

I think the fact is that most people aren't going to want to play games in such a kludgy way -- First, you have to have some kind of tablet (which you probably didn't buy expressly for gaming, nor was it designed this way), then you have to take the thing out of your backpack and hook it up, haul out a controller, maybe sync it.... Its cumbersome, and the "average" consumer doesn't see the point in using their tablet this way.

By not being a tablet or phone, the Ouya is cheaper and purpose-built -- you plug it into the TV and leave it there. When you want to play with it, all you have to do is turn it on and pick up the controller.

For all those bemoaning the lack of console-like games on android devices (ie, the 6-foot experience), I'll refer them again to point one. At this point, providing that experience is not a priority because the majority of users aren't using their devices in this way. Its not just a matter of the apparent kludgyness involved, there's a conceptual disconnect. As more and more android devices are made as set-top-boxes of one kind or another, software will cater to it. And not just by adding controller support to tablet-based games, but also by making viable a completely different design approach -- you'll see actual 'console games' on the Ouya and other android set-tops, not just handset/tablet ports.

Install-base will be important, but the 30k+ pledged install base they have only a couple days in is a good sign. They'll need a lot more than that to be viable in the long-term, but I'm sure some important names are watching the enthusiasm and taking note to keep a closer eye on this thing.

7) The specs are outdated AS OF TODAY, not as of release. This thing is obviously not designed to compete with the 360/PS3 on hardware stats -- they're open about the low-power specs. So... It's like someone told this guy that Ouya was the new Xbox720, and is shooting it down based on that false assumption?

This disappoints me. Why would I get a game console that is weaker than hardware that was out 6 years ago? Should I not be able to get a 360/PS3-level console for $99? By the time this comes out, those hardware specs will be 7 years old. Surely they can cheaply mass-produce something on that level. Right....?

First of all, I've never heard of the people behind it until yesterday

You gotta check the CEO on linkedin man... She's been around.
On that note, a 10 jobs in 10 years kinda spree isn't what I call stability though, so you never know... it's definitely not a scam but:

Most people don't seem to realize that if the company goes bankrupt, there's nothing that's gonna bring you that console you've put 99$ for.
I'm definitely a waiter, especially since there's no discount...

I've been thinking about this, and here's the conclusion I came to.

"They're selling a dream, not a solution."

That is precisely why it is so popular in getting backed on Kickstarter, and why it's very unlikely to actually succeed. The Kickstarter video is carefully tailored for the average consumer, pushing the right buttons and giving him hope.

All the perceived success so far is based only on the positive consumer reaction. But this says nothing about the developers, and this console won't go anywhere without developer support. Developer support is lukewarm at best, so far. Why wouldn't it be, since there are already plenty of platforms that are open enough to support games like Braid, Limbo, World of Goo, etc.

"If openness is your main concern, I’m not sure what is stopping you from targeting the PC and selling games directly through your website. I personally believe that until you’ve got a high quality game on your hands, where you sell it or which gatekeepers you have to get past aren’t your biggest problems."

Read this excellent article for more details.

http://penny-arcade....u-should-be-ske

[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1342080339' post='4958295']
7) The specs are outdated AS OF TODAY, not as of release. This thing is obviously not designed to compete with the 360/PS3 on hardware stats -- they're open about the low-power specs. So... It's like someone told this guy that Ouya was the new Xbox720, and is shooting it down based on that false assumption?

This disappoints me. Why would I get a game console that is weaker than hardware that was out 6 years ago? Should I not be able to get a 360/PS3-level console for $99? By the time this comes out, those hardware specs will be 7 years old. Surely they can cheaply mass-produce something on that level. Right....?
[/quote]That's speculation on my part. It's probably going to be somewhat on par with the PS3/360, but that depends on the specific chip they choose. There's a DX11/GL4 compatible Tegra coming out in Q1 next year, which would be very nice...
But the point is that it's not likely going to be a PS4/720 competitor, which you should expect with the price tag.

[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1342080339' post='4958295']
7) The specs are outdated AS OF TODAY, not as of release. This thing is obviously not designed to compete with the 360/PS3 on hardware stats -- they're open about the low-power specs. So... It's like someone told this guy that Ouya was the new Xbox720, and is shooting it down based on that false assumption?

This disappoints me. Why would I get a game console that is weaker than hardware that was out 6 years ago? Should I not be able to get a 360/PS3-level console for $99? By the time this comes out, those hardware specs will be 7 years old. Surely they can cheaply mass-produce something on that level. Right....?
[/quote]
To be fair though, it has 4 cores* (360 has 3 cores) and 1GB of RAM** (360 has 512MB), so it's not like it's seriously lagging behind current generation consoles. I don't expect people to be able to milk as much out of it as they have the 360 and PS3, but I wouldn't call it a disappointment.

[size=2]* and **: We don't know how fast the cores are or exactly what kind of RAM is in it.

I don't expect people to be able to milk as much out of it as they have the 360 and PS3, but I wouldn't call it a disappointment.

I expect that this system will have a C-like API and a XNA-like API. The first for people who want to "milk" it and the latter for people who just want to make games.

To be fair though, it has 4 cores* (360 has 3 cores)

Well, you also have to remember that the 360 has hyperthreading on each cores. So effectively, it has 6 cores/CPUs.

Well, when the SDK shows up, i'll be trying to develop something, why not?

This disappoints me. Why would I get a game console that is weaker than hardware that was out 6 years ago?[/quote]
Apparently people keep buying nintendo products. Have you read the articles coming out about the wii-u?

"They're selling a dream, not a solution."

Isn't that from Robert Boyd?



As far as I'm concerned, the big upside is that it runs on Android.
I've tossed them a few questions through their DEV email to see how easy it will be to port android titles to the Ouya. I mean, if I'm going to develop android and it's not that bad to port... Why not right?
Well, I believe they're swamped right now, so I'm still expecting a reply...

This disappoints me. Why would I get a game console that is weaker than hardware that was out 6 years ago?

Apparently people keep buying nintendo products. Have you read the articles coming out about the wii-u?
[/quote]
Yeah, I have. Which is why I'm most likely not getting one.