Forum Behavior

I haven''t been on this post very long, but I know what you mean. I personally haven''t experienced anything so bad yet, but I think it is kind of a problem on these forums..

Anyway just thought I''d pitch in (I do like Gamedev.net, I probably visit this site 10 times a day )

I tihnk it would be good if in some forums moderators took a very harsh line on bad behavior. Especially in Lounge and For Beginners. People flame newbies? Whether or not the flames are founded, delete the post outright. Or the topic, or whatever. We don''t need people blasting the newbies with flames.

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Direct3D vs. OpenGL

I don''t know if this would be too drastic, but maybe there could be some sort of thing on the webpage that automatically scans new posts for "flame content" either by some really simplistic thing like looking for people cussing, or by some more advanced code based on some criteria or AI. Just an idea, since it would probably beat having to constantly moderate the posts manually.

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Original post by Promit
We don''t need people blasting the newbies with flames.

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This seem to be stated a lot lately, without discussion. I have yet to hear some rationalization why this seem to be the accepted truth.

Isn''t it better that the more hopeless cases are weeded out early before they spend a lot of time on something they are never going to be any good at? Look at it as some form of boot camp - if they can''t tolerate being flamed for a lame question, chances are they will never make it in this business.

This site is frequented mostly by hobbyists. It is unfair to them those who are interested in game development for fun. It''s this type of elitist attitude that causes a lot of these flames. The idea behind Gamedev is for it to be a place where others interested in game development can come, get information, and interact with a community of fellow developers. This is not a breeding ground for industry specialists. Ask anyone else who has been here for a while, they will surely tell you the same.

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kevin@mayday-anime.com
http://games.mayday-anime.com

Fine - ignore the word "business". My argument still stands.

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Original post by Arild Fines
Isn''t it better that the more hopeless cases are weeded out early before they spend a lot of time on something they are never going to be any good at?

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Everyone deserves a chance. Who are we to decide whether or not the person is hopeless? He/she may just be a slow learner, that doesn''t mean we should "weed them out", we just need a little more patience.

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Look at it as some form of boot camp

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I believe I responded to this in my previous post. This is not boot camp. If you wanted boot camp, you should join the armed forces. This is game development. It has been my expierence that most people get into this field because its fun. Let those who want to have fun at it, have fun. They don''t need to be harassed when they come looking for help. Think back to when you first started out. You researched and asked questions whenever you could, and when you asked a question, you hoped for an answer, not a put down. Be fair and respectful.


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kevin@mayday-anime.com
http://games.mayday-anime.com

Yeah, and as I said a post started by Myopic Rhino in the beginner''s lounge, the people who made these forums didn''t intend for it to be so harsh. This isn''t a boot camp. And honestly it scares me that people have this kind of attitude. When you said we should weed out the weak people, that sounds frighteningly close to what the Nazis said. They wanted to create a perfect aryan race and all, you guys want to create a perfect game development community. Now maybe it''s a little drastic to make that comparison, and I realize that and I urge you not to take it literally.

But, my point is that there''s a fine line between trying to improve the community, and being downright unethical, and I think that any time you insult, offend or treat a newbie badly, you''re crossing that line. You can surely correct them and tell people how they should act, but don''t do it in a way which makes the rest of us look bad, okay? I don''t come to gamedev.net every day because I''m looking for a boot camp. I just want to learn, just like you, and everyone else- even the newbies.

Also, while I understand the need for people to do their own research and find things out on their own as us doing their work for them won't help them learn, I'm getting a little tired of seeing questions answered with a "google is your friend," "go to this website for your answer," or "do your own damn research." If you're not going to answer the question, stay out of the damn thread, you're not helping.

If everyone is just going to do their own research anyway, what the hell is GameDev here for? I though this was a place for interaction and exchange of information among programmers. We might as well do away with all the forums except for the lounge and just hang out and rant all day. "You have a gaming question, go to these other websites, we're not here to answer your questions or do your research for you."

[edited by - JaxHasher on May 2, 2002 12:30:05 PM]

I myself am actually pretty hard on those who are hard on people posting newb style questions.

I usually rip on people who scream to use a search engine first. Or scream to read the manual first. Or scream that the guy asking the question has a bad attitude.

Hello. This is a place to discuss things, ask questions, or toss out a casual question. Who cares if they searched the web first? Maybe they did. Maybe they didn''t.

I imagine I''m in a big room with a bunch of people hanging out who like programming. Beside me in the room is a computer linked to the Web. What if I throw out a question to a couple of programmer dudes sitting next to me? If they came screaming back to me that I should search the Web, I''d look at them strangely and then ask them: "What the fuck is your problem? Is their something wrong with conversation?"

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Original post by RajanSky When you said we should weed out the weak people, that sounds frighteningly close to what the Nazis said. They wanted to create a perfect aryan race and all, you guys want to create a perfect game development community. Now maybe it''s a little drastic to make that comparison, and I realize that and I urge you not to take it literally.

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I believe the jargon file has something to say about that.

But back to the main topic.

The reason so many responses are simply links to google, the beginner''s section, or the articles section, and the reason the forums are becomingly increasingly hostile, is that so many people post so many stupid questions that those links answer easily. Those posts clutter up the forums and distract from the posts by people who need the kind of help that a simple web search won''t solve. That creates an atmosphere of anger and resentment towards the many lazy people who want others solving their problems for them, and who waste everyone else''s time as a result. That atmosphere makes people go overboard at times, flaming honest posts that don''t deserve it and attacking people pointlessly.

You dislike the fact that this place is becoming elitist and immature? I dislike that these forums are being drowned under a mountain of crap posts. I am sick of a daily/weekly post asking if C++ is better than C, if Java is good for game programming, if D3D is better than OpenGL. Fuck those posts and the people that make them. Don''t attack the symptoms, attack the cause.

It goes way beyond that though. Sure, maybe those posts are redundant to the nth degree, but I would venture to say that 40% of the genuine posts get some individuals claiming that their time is being wasted, and Google has the answers.

And if it isn't that, it's someone picking apart the way the question was posed, claiming that they sounded a little too demanding, or they didn't preface their question with a paragraph promising that they already tried a search on Google.

And then there's the absolutely ridiculous posts by people who make narrow minded assumptions about the audience here. I point you to this thread where I had a little fun with their elitest attitude.

EDIT: You've got to kind of read the whole thread (the thread I posted a link to above) through to see how it plays.

[edited by - bishop_pass on May 9, 2002 4:10:44 AM]

I don''t think it takes all that much effort to see some good in the questions people ask. It does seem that there are those that don''t try very hard to offer some genuine encouragement.

Even dry, no-nonsense answers can be a form of bashing to a question that demands more of an answer to be useful, even though some newcomers to the forums might not realize that.

There could definitely be more of an air of positivity.

This is a forum for learning. It just goes to show some people are good at teaching, some are good at sharing their knowledge, and some are just good at showing their knowledge. Just the same, some people are good at receiving knowledge, and some are good at filtering out all the crap and making use of what is provided to them.

I feel sorry for those that came here seeking knowledge only to get knocked away and discouraged because the wrong people were signed on at that time. It''s really unfortunate.

This is a cynical attitude, but sometimes I think it was better when the internet wasn''t around and people actually THOUGHT other people were nice. There are times looking on these forums when I wonder where we are going as people. Behaviors aren''t kept in check when the other person can''t punch you through the monitor, so intellectual bashing can be rampant, and seem more qualified than it actually is. Thankfully, there is more to life than programming, but to those that want to immerse themselves in it for a time, tread lightly and confidently while visiting these forums.

Make concessions in the For Beginners forum, even if nowhere else. Post a link if you have or can find one. Only post STFW or RTFM if typing in the terms yield an immediate result (web) or it is on the contents page/index (manual). And please, enough pissing contests. Anal discussion is boring and irritating; learn to suck it up and keep surfing.

[ GDNet Start Here | GDNet Search Tool | GDNet FAQ ]
[ MS RTFM [MSDN] | SGI STL Docs | Boost ]
[ Google! | Asking Smart Questions | Jargon File ]
Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!

Ahh, Oluseyi, one of my favorite members around here, but somewhat at odds with my philosophy.

Seriously, Oluseyi, you command a great deal of my respect. You''re incredibly intelligent and diverse and well rounded. Simultaneously, you manage to be one of those who I feel is a little bit heavy handed in the STFW and RTFM department while at the same time manage to come off as one of those whom I wouldn''t mind shooting the breeze over a lunch and beer.

Then there was this thread, where one guy apparently decided the original poster didn''t have the right attitude in the way he asked the question.

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You answered the other guys stupid question on where to get the Quake source, but not mine on how to get it to compile?

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"Stupid question"? How exactly do you define a "right attitude", bishop?

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Original post by bishop_pass
Then there was this thread, where one guy apparently decided the original poster didn''t have the right attitude in the way he asked the question.

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It''s not how he asked the question, but one comment that he made when no one responded to his question.

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Original post by pimstead
You answered the other guys stupid question on where to get the Quake source, but not mine on how to get it to compile?

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I think the fault lies on him - he was being inconsiderate.

"I am governed by none other than the Laws of the Universe."

I''m not the one defining right attitudes. Someone else was defining wrong attitudes based on reading a little too much into the choice of wording in the original poster''s question.