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Is the universal term "guys" offensive to women?

Started by CyberSlag5k Apr 6, 2005 at 10:01 PM 120 replies 18.7k views

Original Post

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:01 PM

I feel that respecting people is a very important thing. I sometimes (well, often) feel that as an American, I've been brought up in a society that has become desensetized to the degredation of women. Though I would never fault an individual for adopting the faults of a culture, I do feel it is every person's responsibility to recognize those faults and adjusting his or her attitude/beliefs accordingly. When I use the term "guys" referring to a group of mixed gender, I feel I'm using it as just a generalized, asexual term. However I wonder if that it is entirely inoccuous. I mean, shouldn't it then work the same way. Wouldn't I (or any other guy) find it weird if I were lumped in to a group referred to as girls? "I'll see you girls later" While I wouldn't be offended, I would certainly find it out of place. This makes me feel it might not right to do the other way around, but I'm not entirely sure. I have often felt we need a personalized, asexual pronoun. 99% of the time it's "A person can bring his family and..." Occasionally texts will switch off between his and her, but wouldn't it be easier if we just had a personalized version of "it"? "An employee may arrange desk however likes." Wouldn't that be nicer? It should probably be something starting with 'H' (as in his or her). That's just one I've always felt would be handy as it is an utter pain to use "his or her" and just using "his", I feel, is not acceptable. Then again I thought that the spelling of "womyn" was going too far, so I don't know... What does everybody else feel? If it is as most people say and that it's meaningless, then shouldn't we be able to use "girls" in a mixed company setting as we (at least Americans) use "guys"?

Raduprv

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:05 PM

guys: Informal. Persons of either sex.

CyberSlag5k

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:07 PM

Quote:
Original post by Raduprv
guys: Informal. Persons of either sex.

That's interesting. However institutionalized and acceptable are not necessarily the same thing. I'm not sure we can look at "what is" as an argument for "what should be", ya know?

uncle_rico

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:10 PM

In both Spanish, as well as English (in rare cases where gender versions of words are used) the masculine form of the word is used to describe groups of a mixed gender. I know that in America, we will often times even use "guys" when speaking to a group comprised of only women.

I don't know of any women that are offended by this, though, because I believe that most understand that we do it because we were raised to speak this way, and not because we intend to hurt their feelings. Intent is everything here.

Although there are some people who believe that our masculine words ("guys", "mailman", "mankind", etc.) are archaic and should not be used anymore. My attitude is "no harm, no foul." You can only really be insulted by these words if you want to be. It's likely that these words will eventually purge themselves from our language anyway as our society evolves.

Etnu

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:10 PM

Have you ever considered alcoholism? This is not something worth worrying about. At all.

uncle_rico

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:12 PM

Quote:
Original post by Etnu
Have you ever considered alcoholism? This is not something worth worrying about. At all.

Hahahahahahaha. ROFL!

$fractoid$

fractoid

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:13 PM

Most (if not all) women I know use the term 'guys' to informally address a group of mixed gender. I don't think they find it offensive. Of course, here in G'Dayland we're somewhat more easygoing and less prone to take offense. Maybe it's different in the States.

Rayno

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:14 PM

Do you think the increased use of "guys" in reference to men is a product of feminism? Its a less masculine term than men.

Sorry, I was just thinking about that the other day.

uncle_rico

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:15 PM

Quote:
Original post by Rayno
Do you think the increased use of "guys" in reference to men is a product of feminism? Its a less masculine term than men.

Sorry, I was just thinking about that the other day.

Only if you drag out the "s."

"Hello, guyssssss!"

twix

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:19 PM

Everyone I know even uses "guys" to address groups of only women. (As in, "you guys are terrible, terrible people", something I said to a few girls this morning). Shockingly enough, nobody cares. [grin]

CyberSlag5k

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:19 PM

Quote:
Original post by uncle_rico
Although there are some people who believe that our masculine words ("guys", "mailman", "mankind", etc.) are archaic and should not be used anymore. My attitude is "no harm, no foul." You can only really be insulted by these words if you want to be.

But again, what if the situation were reversed. Can you say that it would not affect you at all? I wouldn't be offended or upset, but I do think I would have to adjust to it.

And the other thing is, while we may not use the term in a degrading fashion, did it first come about that way? There was a time when it was universally accepted that women were inferior to men (reminds me of a certain issue on a certain recent American election). Would it not be the respectful thing to do to deny further propogation of such an idiotic notion?

Quote:
It's likely that these words will eventually purge themselves from our language anyway as our society evolves.

I hope so.

Quote:
Original post by Etnu
Have you ever considered alcoholism?

What exactly does that mean?

Quote:

This is not something worth worrying about. At all.

That statement is as insensative as it is closed-minded. While it may not offend you or I, how do you know it does not affect the self-esteem of thousands of women every day? That is most definitely worth worrying about.

Boder

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:22 PM

Yes, in an ideal world we would have all the missing gender-neutral pronouns in the English language. And other languages would shed their sexist trappings. But there are many more important irregularities to iron out of the English language before fixing this deficiency.

Mawr

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:23 PM

I've seen women when referring to a group composed entirely of women, refer to the group as 'guys'. I know that is a single case and does not describe the feeling that all women have towards the subject, I don't think its such a big deal anymore.

I think a much bigger problem is the disproportionate amount of women to men in my CS classes. Some classes are completly stag. So if any women would like to help alleviate this dire situation, all you have to do is go to MCTC for a two year degree in the IT field. [/tongue_in_cheek]

twix

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:23 PM

Quote:
Original post by CyberSlag5k
That statement is as insensative as it is closed-minded. While it may not offend you or I, how do you know it does not affect the self-esteem of thousands of women every day? That is most definitely worth worrying about.

On the other hand, I can't think of a single woman I know who wouldn't laugh at you for this post. Seriously, this isn't something worth being concerned about. "His" is a generic, asexual pronoun in some contexts. Deal with it. [wink]

capn_midnight

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:25 PM

Quote:
Original post by Etnu
Have you ever considered alcoholism? This is not something worth worrying about. At all.

oh, on the contrary, it's atleast as important as the pronunciation of null.

Boder

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:25 PM

Quote:
"An employee may arrange desk however likes."

Just use "it."

"An employee may arrange its desk however it likes." Problem solved! [grin]

edit: it's -> its

twix

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:26 PM

Quote:
Original post by Boder
"An employee may arrange it's desk however it likes." Problem solved! [grin]

... except for your poor grammar. [grin]

uncle_rico

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:27 PM

Quote:
But again, what if the situation were reversed. Can you say that it would not affect you at all? I wouldn't be offended or upset, but I do think I would have to adjust to it.

I wouldn't have to adjust to it if it is something that has been in effect for as long as I can actually remember. I believe most people learn the common useage of the word "guys" before they even stop to consider what it means.

Quote:
And the other thing is, while we may not use the term in a degrading fashion, did it first come about that way?

It almost certain stemmed from the attitude where men were regarded as superior. That attitude is mostly gone, though, and only the language remains. I don't believe that the origins of the word matter so much to most people. When someone who is otherwise respectful to women says "guys" to a group of people, I am sure that most of them will understand that he is just speaking the way he was taught to speak and will not be insulted. They probably won't even think about it.

In fact, if that person switched to a gender-neutral word like "people" they might be considered odd. Think about that. "Hey people, come look at this." It works but it sounds wierd and I think most girls would agree.

Rayno

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:28 PM

I tend to just write around it:
"The employees may arrange their desks however they like."

CyberSlag5k

Apr 6, 2005 at 10:29 PM

I agree it is a far less important issue than some, but I definitely think it's worth thinking about and discussing. My girl friends use it too, but that does not say that it's still not offensive to some. Of course you could say just about anything and offend someone, but if there is a significant amount of the female population bothered by this, or if it does indeed work again ensuring equality in any shape or form, it is something that should be addressed.

It's like the gay rights thing. As much as I am in favor of gay marriage, it is pretty low on my political priority list (as an American, environmental and foreign relations issues trouble me deeply anymore). However I still feel that it is unjust to do so and demonstrates a breech of civil rights, and as such is important and worth consideration, despite the fact that CFC's are rising and peak oil production is vast approaching.

How about this. Are there any women reading this post that are offended, bothered, or at least feel it would be the right thing to remove it from our everyday lexicon?

Thanks for everyone's responses! Keep them coming!

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