Violence in Games

Tobias Hoffmann · 2008-04-17T13:29:34

Quote:Original post by Stab-o-tronQuote:Original post by KonfusiusNo, it's just due to the fact that some people refuse to think. Or to admit that I might have a point. Or have no moral values..."If you disagree with me you are immoral"I don't expect immoral people to uphold or understand moral values, or people that do. I also don't expect learn-resistant people to change their POV, because that's beyond their capabilities. I can't even make sense of your sentence because I never accused anyone in this thread of being immoral. I've also realized that easily being immersed in games and identifying with the alter ego is something that's not everyone is doing. I think these people must be very cold-hearted to not let something in that has been created with love and spirit (only, I don't think Manhunt has much love in it!).I'm open to any arguments which would show Manhunt in a better light. I'm obviously quite opinionated here.Quote:"But my opinion is just common sense"Truly the hallmark of someone with a good argument on their side.I'm having a hard time understanding why you reduce my arguments to such shallow and wrongly inferred points. If we analyzed Manhunt thoroughly, I'm sure we'd find quite a bit of unethical moral in it. Ethics is what our civilization is built on. Isn't it common sense to fight something that endangers you?

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Started by coderlt00 April 12, 2008 11:26 PM

178 comments, last by ApochPiQ 16 years ago

demonkoryu

980

April 13, 2008 11:41 AM

Quote:Original post by Goober King
Quote:Original post by Konfusius

Quote:
3. In the US, they are not doing anything, and this is exactly as it should be - the free market should regulate itself. The situation is different in other parts of the world, though, although I myself am not familiar with the details.

I can't wait for the "free market" for child prostitution to regulate itself.

what? Are you being serious at all? Games are a legal market, child prostitution is so far off the scale of "legal" its not even funny. It's a totally ridiculous comparison, and I think that is putting it mildly.

I'm not being funny at all. Legal is a relative term. However I wasn't comparing games to child prostitution, just making clear that the "free market" isn't in any way regulated by ethical principles.

ApochPiQ

23,138

April 13, 2008 03:30 PM

Quote:Original post by Konfusius
I'm not being funny at all. Legal is a relative term. However I wasn't comparing games to child prostitution, just making clear that the "free market" isn't in any way regulated by ethical principles.

We all know that. The point is, the games market does regulate itself specifically to avoid government intervention. That's what the ESRB is for, among other boards. (Again, this is speaking only for the U.S.)

Wielder of the Sacred Wands
[Work - ArenaNet] [Epoch Language] [Scribblings]

LessBread

1,415

April 13, 2008 03:45 PM

Games? Games aren't the problem, YouTube is the problem!!! Videotaped Florida Teen Beating Prompts Calls To Block Violent Content

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man

Raghar

April 13, 2008 03:54 PM

Less bread is here...

It will turn political. ~_^

LessBread

1,415

April 13, 2008 03:55 PM

Quote:Original post by ApochPiQ
Quote:Original post by Konfusius
I'm not being funny at all. Legal is a relative term. However I wasn't comparing games to child prostitution, just making clear that the "free market" isn't in any way regulated by ethical principles.

We all know that. The point is, the games market does regulate itself specifically to avoid government intervention. That's what the ESRB is for, among other boards. (Again, this is speaking only for the U.S.)

Are markets concrete things or abstract things? If the ESRB provides the regulation, then according to what you've said, that would mean that the ESRB is the games market. It seems to me that the ESRB constitutes a collusion among the players in the games market. At any rate, the assertion that the games market regulates itself suffers from the fallacy of mistaking abstract things for concrete things.

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man

LessBread

1,415

April 13, 2008 03:56 PM

Quote:Original post by Raghar
Less bread is here...

It will turn political. ~_^

Hello to you too...

// It's worth noting that this subject has always been political and moreover that the focus on games is just the latest in a long series of censorship battles. In the 1980's it was records, in the 1960's it was radio, in the 1950's it was comic books and in the 1930's it was movies. And before then it was books and in many places around the world it's still books.

[Edited by - LessBread on April 13, 2008 4:56:34 PM]

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man

Yann L

1,806

April 13, 2008 04:04 PM

Quote:Original post by coderlt00
1. Is the public being told that violent video games negatively affect youth? And if so, how?

Yeah, the public is being told so. Why ? Because video games are easy victims, not well understood by the older generations, and such always good targets for yet another sensationalist media report.

Quote:Original post by coderlt00
2. What is being done by manufacturers of video games to address the problem of violence i.e. more warning labels etc.?

Manufacturers should adhere to whatever local legislation requires. And nothing more.

Quote:Original post by coderlt00
3. How is the government helping to resolve this issue? If not, why not?

The governments role is to ensure the protection of children against threats they cannot defend themselves against. There are much more serious threats to protect against than whatever fuzzy definition of 'video game violence' some socially challenged psychologists / lawyers came up with. Physical and sexual abuse of children, for example. Once the kid becomes an adult, the whole point is moot anyway.

Quote:Original post by coderlt00
4. Do you think the problem of violence in video games can be resolved and if so, in what kind of time frame?

There is no problem that would require intervention.

Oh yeah, and I do not work in the video game industry.

ApochPiQ

23,138

April 13, 2008 04:08 PM

Quote:Original post by LessBread
Are markets concrete things or abstract things? If the ESRB provides the regulation, then according to what you've said, that would mean that the ESRB is the games market. It seems to me that the ESRB constitutes a collusion among the players in the games market. At any rate, the assertion that the games market regulates itself suffers from the fallacy of mistaking abstract things for concrete things.

Uh, what?

The ESRB was the result of developers voluntarily deciding to institute a rating system so that the government would not do so. And although there is no law requiring games to be ESRB rated, it's all but impossible to find games for sale in the U.S. which are not rated. The ESRB system has become a de facto standard for publishers, retailers, developers, and players alike.

Those four groups are the game industry and the gaming market. And they have voluntary privatized regulation in place via the ESRB. So how this adds up to some kind of fallacy I am not certain.

(Seriously, did you just invent that? Abstract versus concrete things? You do realize that it is idiomatically common in the English language to speak of large aggregate groups as if they were personal entities, right? Anthropomorphization ring a bell?)

Wielder of the Sacred Wands
[Work - ArenaNet] [Epoch Language] [Scribblings]

_the_phantom_

11,263

April 13, 2008 04:27 PM

Quote:Original post by coderlt00
1. Is the public being told that violent video games negatively affect youth? And if so, how?

Yes, as YannL says to sell another story.

Quote:
2. What is being done by manufacturers of video games to address the problem of violence i.e. more warning labels etc.?

Boxes clearly display a warning label, as such the manufactures have done all they can.

Quote:
3. How is the government helping to resolve this issue? If not, why not?

The government isn't helping at all; if anything from various 'studies' and 'groups' around the world the waters have been muddied even further.

Quote:
4. Do you think the problem of violence in video games can be resolved and if so, in what kind of time frame?

There is no 'problem of violence in video games' to be 'resolved'. Games with violent content are marked as such.

The 'problem' is that of parents; the ones who'll buy their 8 year old kid a copy of Grand Theft Auto 3 without (a) looking at the box or (b) thinking about the content. Instead they do it because they either (a) want to shut their kid up and do their own stuff or (b) want to be their child's friend. Either way they are avoiding the point of being a parent and between that and not paying attention to their kids lives and what they are doing allows them to get hold of and play games they shouldn't be.

Also, the notion that games make people violent is just bizzare and often used as a reason why people go on these killing sprees. As a counter to that we firstly have the studies cited already which show violent games as a good outlet for anger etc and also there is the numbers game; games sell in the millions, as such one person going out and killing people is statisically insignifcant. Also, there is the total failure to look into what the person's life was like before they went off and did what they did; or if they do look at it they get the conclusion arse backwards. Instead of thinking 'maybe this person was having problems, thats why they turned to games as an outlet' they end up thinking 'the games changed them'.

So, there is no 'problem' there is simple a need to sell things to people, cause worry and hype and for parents to continue not being parents, safe in the knowledge that it is the Game Industries fault that their lovely little boy went off and shot his school mates...

LessBread

1,415

April 13, 2008 04:53 PM

Quote:Original post by ApochPiQ
Quote:Original post by LessBread
Are markets concrete things or abstract things? If the ESRB provides the regulation, then according to what you've said, that would mean that the ESRB is the games market. It seems to me that the ESRB constitutes a collusion among the players in the games market. At any rate, the assertion that the games market regulates itself suffers from the fallacy of mistaking abstract things for concrete things.

Uh, what?

The ESRB was the result of developers voluntarily deciding to institute a rating system so that the government would not do so. And although there is no law requiring games to be ESRB rated, it's all but impossible to find games for sale in the U.S. which are not rated. The ESRB system has become a de facto standard for publishers, retailers, developers, and players alike.

Those four groups are the game industry and the gaming market. And they have voluntary privatized regulation in place via the ESRB. So how this adds up to some kind of fallacy I am not certain.

(Seriously, did you just invent that? Abstract versus concrete things? You do realize that it is idiomatically common in the English language to speak of large aggregate groups as if they were personal entities, right? Anthropomorphization ring a bell?)

I'm familiar with the origins of the ESRB. Imo, forming it was a smart move by the games industry. The fallacy is linguistic as you point out. A market is not a concrete thing capable of taking action but an abstraction that we speak of as if it were a concrete thing capable of taking action. I didn't make up this distinction. For further detail see fallacy of misplaced concreteness: ... one commits the fallacy of misplaced concreteness when one mistakes an abstract belief, opinion or concept about the way things are for a physical or 'concrete' reality.

The games market does not regulate itself, the games industry regulates itself via the ESRB. Asserting that a market regulates itself, while idiomatically acceptable, introduces an ideological bias into what otherwise might suffice as a clinical description of the subject.

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man

Violence in Games

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