Assembling the intellectual elite

I find it hard to believe that enough people could be both intellectual elite and like minded. At least, not to the extent that they would be able to solve and agree how to solve a vast majority of issues.

On the other hand, you could try to look at Google's hiring process [smile]

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Original post by ApochPiQ In this particular environment, persons would be appointed to positions of power and control based entirely on their capabilities to do the appointed job, and do it well. Democracy would be eliminated in favor of a system that recognizes and promotes real achievements that benefit mankind and society as a whole.

Right, and how do you propose to do that? How do you design the review system? Do you go and ask the population: "are you better off now?". Sounds a lot like another system that's quite popular in the western world.

Actually, I'm not nearly as interested in the pseudopolitical machinations as I am in just getting smart people together in one place. It seems like there is a serious lack of that in the "general public" - i.e. outside of fairly exclusive subcultures (academia being the main one that comes to mind).

In other words, something for the common uncommon man [smile]

I see it as being a solid proposal with numerous, tangible benefits but at the same time I consider it a pipe-dream.

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In this particular environment, persons would be appointed to positions of power and control based entirely on their capabilities to do the appointed job, and do it well. Democracy would be eliminated in favor of a system that recognizes and promotes real achievements that benefit mankind and society as a whole.

I can't think of any current politicians that even come close to fitting those criteria, although you address this yourself.

Getting a lot of smart/intellectual people in one place does not in any way guarantee that there won't be any general apathy, ignorance or "anti-intelligent" behavior.

Case in point: OpenGL or Direct3D? HTML or Variables? Hockey Simulator or MP3-beating Compression.

I suspect rulership by any one cliche would devolve quickly into corrupt dictatorship. Without democratic oversight, you'd quickly find the rules of what constitutes "the most capable person for the job" falls into line with the thinking of the rulers.

However, if the ruling cabal gets to wear cowled robes, I'm all for it.

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Original post by ApochPiQ So what I'm interested in primarily at the moment is a way to accumulate a body of like-minded individuals that can begin shaping the culture and society for such a significant restructuring. If nothing else, it'd be cool to find the local smart folks and hang out with them, as a reprieve from the general apathy, ignorance, and anti-intellectual bent of contemporary American society.

What comes to mind on this point is your local Mensa group? I doubt though that you'll be able to militarize them [smile]

I've found that the primary issue with getting 'smart people' together is that the increased specialization, cultivated by the need to be competitive in a free-market economy, means that while people may be intelligent in some areas, they can be utterly naive in others -- myself more than included.

I always wanted to put my Computer Science professor in the same room as my Italian professor and time how long it would take for them to strike up a meaningful conversation on common ground. I would guess, given their narrow specialties, quite a while.

So while you may find it easy to surround yourself with like-minded individuals in specialized subjects (Computer Science conventions, et cetera) -- I think you would be hard pressed to find a significantly large group of modern Renaissance Men... society has just moved in the opposite direction.

While I disagree that the world would be better operated by the intellectual elite (It works in theory, but does it work in practice? Measuring the difference between theoretical and pragmatic knowledge is a tricky business), I always enjoy the company of those far more intelligent than I. If your militia makes its way to Boston, look me up.


Your best bet would be to find a small group of like-minded friends, start a secret society, develop some traditions and rituals, and scour the bookstores and universities for like-minded folk. Invite them to dine with your 'secret' society. Their curiosity as to your exclusiveness will hook them, and hopefully your witty dinner conversation will reel them in...

Best implemented but still corrupt meritocracy I can think of was Scholar-Bureaucrats of Old China.

Your proposal sounds something like Plato's Philosopher Kings or a Technocratic Republic. I dont like it. Just because someone is 'intelligent' does not mean they are immune to vices, greed and corruption. On a more mundane level, have you never had to spend time with over-pompous dullards smug in their 'high IQ' points and expertise in the narrowest subset of arcana? Likely this group will be the quickest path to a dystopian future with elites that decide what is best for whom. Eugenics, Social Prediction, destruction of liberty and removal of individual freedoms and the whole lot would be quickly arrived at by them since as it were, they know better than you what is good for you.

Any small group of self selecting elites will quickly degenerate into rabid totalitarianism. Note too that the like mindedness which leads to inexistent dissenting opinions also leads to cultural , scientific stagnation and apathy. Then collapse.

As for the more practical goal. See about attending conferences near you or arranging regular talks, discussion/meeting groups with invited speakers from different areas of specialties. Not just say, science. Contacting people (perhaps in a local college) that might help you secure a venue and talkers. Creating Posters advertising the meetings and placing them in bookstores, local university campuses or utilizing facebook and similar networking tools to find interested people nearby would be the first step to create such a gathering.

I'm unfortunately a Mensa member. I briefly peeked into one of their meetings a long time ago, and never went to any Mensa event ever again. From my experience, the so called 'intellectual elite' is incredibly arrogant, annoying and often completely incapable of accepting criticism. These are really not the kind of folks I'd like to hang around with, to be honest. I don't know you, but I'd much prefer going to a pub with my sub-150 IQ friends than to listen to a super intellectual speaker who is so full of it that it isn't even funny anymore.

And I'd certainly not want my country being ruled by people that have absolutely no connection to the real world around them. Sure, the politicians we get are usually a bit too much on the other side of the IQ spectrum, but I don't think putting 'the elite' at power would do any good. What we need are normal, honest and rational thinking people with open minds. Unfortunately, such people are hard to come by in politics.

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Original post by Trapper Zoid I suspect rulership by any one cliche would devolve quickly into corrupt dictatorship. Without democratic oversight, you'd quickly find the rules of what constitutes "the most capable person for the job" falls into line with the thinking of the rulers.

What is that democratic oversight thing you are talking about ? Ah, you mean that thing were people vote for the candidate with the 'right' religion or skin colour, or the one who will 'crack down on terror', or basically whomever the media tells them to vote for ? Aaah yeah, that democratic oversight...

You don't want the intellectual elite to be in power. It is a question of character and leadership, not smarts. But I would replace democracy with a holdemocracy in which all positions are decided through poker tournaments just because I'm very curious about the outcome. [grin] Don't vote for me!

Should these meritocrats agree on something? I'd go with dictatorship. A dictator doesn't need to water down the right decisions with unnecessary compromises.

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Original post by ApochPiQ I've recently adopted the belief that the world would be a far better place if operated solely by a meritocracy of the intellectual elite. In particular, I think replacing the majority of political and bureaucratic machinery with a slimmed-down, pragmatic framework would eliminate a vast amount of the problems that our planet currently faces. In this particular environment, persons would be appointed to positions of power and control based entirely on their capabilities to do the appointed job, and do it well. Democracy would be eliminated in favor of a system that recognizes and promotes real achievements that benefit mankind and society as a whole. Of course, such a scheme faces numerous practical problems and would be significantly difficult to enact, especially in a culture like that of the US where people are deeply attached to their right to vote, despite the general abuse, misuse, and ignorant wasting of that right by a significant fraction of the populace. So what I'm interested in primarily at the moment is a way to accumulate a body of like-minded individuals that can begin shaping the culture and society for such a significant restructuring. If nothing else, it'd be cool to find the local smart folks and hang out with them, as a reprieve from the general apathy, ignorance, and anti-intellectual bent of contemporary American society. Anyone have some ideas for how to go about establishing such a gathering?

You're clearly a naive intellectual idealist. I don't think that's the kind of person who should be in charge.

I'm reminded of a particular Simpson's episode...

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Original post by Yann L I'm unfortunately a Mensa member. I briefly peeked into one of their meetings a long time ago, and never went to any Mensa event ever again. From my experience, the so called 'intellectual elite' is incredibly arrogant, annoying and often completely incapable of accepting criticism.

So true.

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Original post by Yann L What is that democratic oversight thing you are talking about ? Ah, you mean that thing were people vote for the candidate with the 'right' religion or skin colour, or the one who will 'crack down on terror', or basically whomever the media tells them to vote for ? Aaah yeah, that democratic oversight...

Yup. Modern democracy might tend to promote mediocracy, but it acts as a safety valve so that when things get bad you can change leaders without bloodshed. It also forces the government to consider the population at large in order to stay in power. That's not to say I think our current systems of democracy cannot be improved, but I don't know of a system of government without participation with voters that wouldn't eventually devolve into tyranny. Not until we can construct a perfectly rational supercomputer AI ruler, at least. [smile]

If you have an elite minority group, who I suspect will eventually start ruling mostly for the benefit of that elite minority group, you'll end up with either a brutal military dictatorship keeping the majority in check or a violent revolution to depose the ruling minority. Neither seem pleasant to me.

As an aside, I know of very few politicians who are "on the other side of the IQ curve", i.e. under 100. I suspect most politicians are between 110 and 140. You can't be too stupid and survive in a cut-throad business like politics. As a further aside, I have doubts on the ability to measure a property like "intelligence" so people's IQ levels are a very fuzzy metric, especially at extreme levels.

Darn, there's about five different ways we could take this discussion. I vote we bring this back to talk about secret societies and cowled robes. Who's up to design the secret handshake?

Graphing the ratings of the users that have posted in this thread yields interesting results, considering the nature of its topic.

If you want better quality at the top, you need to improve the base. Education would be a good start. The apathy and quest for mediocrity imo goes hand in hand with poor general education. When people smarten up, and are kept generally inquisitive (and quality has to be instilled from an early age), their taste and judgement improve.

I don't think you need something extremely bright to be a leader, more about the quality of his judgement, morals, strength of character. Certainly not a moron though (we all saw what happened in the last 8 years).

However, who he chooses to appoint for a particular task (ministers, ect...) would need to be pretty experienced in their field.

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Original post by ApochPiQ I've recently adopted the belief that the world would be a far better place if operated solely by a meritocracy of the intellectual elite. In particular, I think replacing the majority of political and bureaucratic machinery with a slimmed-down, pragmatic framework would eliminate a vast amount of the problems that our planet currently faces.

Why?

If the democratic system in your country is showing flaws, why not see if those flaws are repairable? If they are, the intelligent response would be to fix those flaws instead of ripping the entire political machine apart and constructing a brand new one based on untested theories.

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In this particular environment, persons would be appointed to positions of power and control based entirely on their capabilities to do the appointed job, and do it well. Democracy would be eliminated in favor of a system that recognizes and promotes real achievements that benefit mankind and society as a whole.

That paragraph contains a non-sequitur: there is no reason whatsoever for democracy to be eliminated. After all, how are you going to choose which brain best fits the role? Or do you believe that there is only ever going to be one possible candidate for each position?

Either way, voting will be needed.

Perhaps the biggest issue here is the very concept of an "intellectual élite". Surely it would be better for all of humanity if everyone were well-educated and well-informed?

There are certainly problems with present political systems, but these can mostly be fixed by improving education -- and I do mean "improving", not just dumbing-down and trying to make the system a one-size-fits-all affair -- and including courses in critical thinking.