Jerk on the internet

Vanke · 2005-11-18T13:48:12

Quote:Original post by dnsauveQuote:Original post by VankeQuote:Original post by dnsauveSo, everyone should live by your standards? Because you don't think video games are important, and should not be given the same weight as a real game, everyone else is FORCED to agree?No they are not forced to agree, i'm not forcing anyone to do anything, except to i guess accept the fact that there are people who act that way in games, nothing you do or say will ever change that. THere are people who do not and will not ever share your point of view on video games. I guess that's all i'm forcing on people in this discussion.But you are forcing them. You admittedly ruin their enjoyment thereby forcing them to your point of view.They are forced to conform, or to leave. What other choice do they have?Okay so I am forcing them as a consequence of my actions okay I agree with that. But why should I be forced to play the game it was meant to be played. (I hope you guys realize i'm playing a bit of devils advocate here.) Why should i be forced to accept these arbitrary rules they aren't built in to the game. Before you go on and make another comparison to me ruining a game in real life because they don't have rules built in I will say again i view them as different. To me a computer game allows me to do everything i should do and disallows me to do the things i'm not supposed to do.

kseh

3,998

November 18, 2005 05:42 PM

Quote:
I don't believe there will ever be a law against griefing someone in a game, as long as it doesn't involve money no one except the game players really care at all and even then it's just the victims and even then I doubt it really bothers anyone fifteen minutes after it happened. Or at least not for very long after.

Neat :) I learned something! Wondered where to find links to law stuff like this.

Canadian law that already exist which might be interpreted by a judge some day. Would most people go so far as to file such a complaint against someone PKing? Probably not. But looks like there is some foundation for it being considered seriously. Of course I'm not a judge, but some day blatent PKing could be seen as a punishable offense.

I assume our American friends have similar laws. Some might say they have a reputation for being litigious (though i guess mischief laws are not civil in nature). I figure it's only a matter of time.

I think this is just the relevant stuff. The link above can take you to the full text.

Quote:

Mischief

Mischief
430. (1) Every one commits mischief who wilfully
(d) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with any person in the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property.

Mischief in relation to data
(1.1) Every one commits mischief who wilfully

(b) renders data meaningless, useless or ineffective;
(d) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with any person in the lawful use of data or denies access to data to any person who is entitled to access thereto.

Punishment

(4) Every one who commits mischief in relation to property, other than property described in subsection (3),
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Idem
(5) Every one who commits mischief in relation to data
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Offence
(5.1) Every one who wilfully does an act or wilfully omits to do an act that it is his duty to do, if that act or omission is likely to constitute mischief causing actual danger to life, or to constitute mischief in relation to property or data,

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

sSimontis

100

November 18, 2005 07:34 PM

You get into a ranked server. A few no-lifes decide they want to increase their rank, so they get all the good people on one team and rape everyone else who is just playing for fun. Most ranked servers I am on are like this, even unranked ones are. People have too much free time, and enjoy showing it. This is what I cannot stand at all. I'm fine with everything else, its great to mess around with these types.

Scott SimontisMy political blog

Maega

707

November 18, 2005 08:10 PM

Well, lets see..

Vanke, if you create a subscription based game with a feature that is good when used correctly (as was intended) but annoying and stupid when abused, would you tell your paying customers to get over it and that they are not real people so they don't matter?

That's basically what you're saying now. People shouldn't care because games are just games, right?

I would NEVER want to have anything to do with your company. It'd be financial suicide.

grungery

139

November 18, 2005 08:31 PM

So many things I feel the need to reply to:

Quote:Original post by Vanke
Quote:Original post by flangazor
Quote:You should stop acting like a child.

What's the matter? You don't like people acting like an asshole on the internet?

I have no problem with people acting like assholes, but why act like a child on this discussion it doesn't make you look like anyhting other then an immature person.

Well, guess what you look like, and are, when you TK your whole team in CS, when they're trying to complete objectives. And there's absolutely no difference, even by your reasoning, between the two situations, because they both occur as virtual interactions. The only reason you could possibly use is that this is, as you've mentioned before, a "civil discussion." But not everyone thinks like you. Some people might like to post on forums only to act like immature idiots. Some people might like to play games for these same reasons... although, I can't think of anyone who does this off the top of my head.

Quote:Original post by Vanke
I would never cause harm to another person ever regardless of whether I could be caught or not, I thought I had gotten that across apparantly not. But I do assure you I have very strong moral and ethical beliefs.

To me tking in a game has nothing to do with morals and ethics they just don't apply to videogames for me. It has to do with no reprucssions and anonymity but it also has to do with the fact that its a VIDEOGAME.

Define harm. Harm comes in many forms besides the physical. You harm people when you ruin their fun time.

Sure, you have a right to ruin other people's fun , but it still makes you an asshole, even if it only in the virtual world. It makes you an asshole because, if you haven't realized this yet, the grief you cause to others is not virtual, it's real. Imagine if you insult every peron you walk by in a mall. Not only does this violate social norms, it will invariably cause grief to some people. When you decide to TK people like an idiot you violate competitive gaming norms, and it will also invariably irritate some people. The medium for your idiocy might change, from real to virtual, but its consequent effect on those who it affects doesn't change; it remains real.

In conclusion, I'd like to say this is not really a balanced argument of rights in the real world versus those in the virtual world, since you've contradicted yourself various times over. One Second, you claim to have a strong moral character, the next you claim you don't care about others' people's fun, as long as there's anonymity to protect you. Ultimately, you're a morally confused boy (or man; I can't tell how old you are by your reasoning alone) and you won't get far in life with such a selfish ethical worldview (Do what I want, regardless of the inconvenience it causes to others, as long as I can get away with it.)

Quote:Original post by bjle
Say you're extremely good at CS. You join a server, and proceed to kill every single enemy before any of your teammates get a chance, in every round. Out the window goes everyone else's enjoyment. Isn't that just as unethical as TKing? Now how many people say that this hypothetical "you" should be banned?

What if you're playing a 1vs1 in any game, and you quit after 15 minutes? (Disregarding the fact that if this was a ranked game, your opponent would be absolutely overjoyed rather than annoyed), is that unethical?

What if you discover an exploit in the rules of an MMO that allows your player to become a giant firebreathing monster, and you decide to run around killing (NPC) bunnies and making everyone laugh? Is cheating to increase others' enjoyment ethical?

1)No it is not unethical, because you are playing the game as it is meant to be played, you are not breaking any rules, and you are succeeding. Unfortunately, the other players are not as skilled as you are, but that does not make you unethical. The difference between this and TKing is that in TKing you're intentionally trying to ruin other peoples' enjoyment.

2)If you have somewhere to go, or if you're not having fun anymore, or if you're not violating any rules (don't disconnect in a ranked game), then no, it is not unethical. If, however, you are exploiting the situation (perhaps, by breaking a rule against disconnecting during a ranked game),then yes, it is unethical.

3)Cheating, by definition, is unethical.

Status: Ambitious fool, maybe, with a huge bias for games.

Vanke

100

Author

November 18, 2005 08:43 PM

Quote:Original post by kseh
Quote:
I don't believe there will ever be a law against griefing someone in a game, as long as it doesn't involve money no one except the game players really care at all and even then it's just the victims and even then I doubt it really bothers anyone fifteen minutes after it happened. Or at least not for very long after.

Neat :) I learned something! Wondered where to find links to law stuff like this.

Canadian law that already exist which might be interpreted by a judge some day. Would most people go so far as to file such a complaint against someone PKing? Probably not. But looks like there is some foundation for it being considered seriously. Of course I'm not a judge, but some day blatent PKing could be seen as a punishable offense.

I assume our American friends have similar laws. Some might say they have a reputation for being litigious (though i guess mischief laws are not civil in nature). I figure it's only a matter of time.

I think this is just the relevant stuff. The link above can take you to the full text.
Quote:

Mischief

Mischief
430. (1) Every one commits mischief who wilfully
(d) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with any person in the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property.

Mischief in relation to data
(1.1) Every one commits mischief who wilfully

(b) renders data meaningless, useless or ineffective;
(d) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with any person in the lawful use of data or denies access to data to any person who is entitled to access thereto.

Punishment

(4) Every one who commits mischief in relation to property, other than property described in subsection (3),
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Idem
(5) Every one who commits mischief in relation to data
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Offence
(5.1) Every one who wilfully does an act or wilfully omits to do an act that it is his duty to do, if that act or omission is likely to constitute mischief causing actual danger to life, or to constitute mischief in relation to property or data,

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

I honestly don't see how tking someone in a game of counterstrike could ever be considered rendering data useless or preventing anyone from getting data unsless that data is winning.

Vanke

100

Author

November 18, 2005 08:54 PM

Geeez people way to turn me into the straw man here.

Man I used to tk when I was a teenager, i'm sure you people have as well.

I don't rape, beat, or kill. I'm not mean in real life and I'm not an ass. I hold the door open for my girlfriend.

I picked up a cane for an old lady on the bus once, that should make me a good person.

I have rescued a cat from the street and raised eight kittens for three months in a one bedroom apartment. I fell in love with one of the cats and raised it basically from birth.

I play videogames. I don't think they are anything other then games. If someone kills me in a game or takes something from me I get annoyed then get over it like you. I don't see what is such a big deal about tking someone. It's just a game.
I am now bored and am not going to try and defend myself, well I should say defend the tonnes of people who bothered you in a video game.

All i was trying to do was get across the fact that I don't care about what happens in a game like counterstrike. I would never hurt someone on the internet, steal data or do anything evil like that.

I just wanted to try and get across who I am because every one wanted to attack me without even knowing a single thing about me. Anywys that's all from me on thiss account time to start fresh.

Sneftel

1,788

November 18, 2005 08:56 PM

Quote:Original post by Vanke
All i was trying to do was get across the fact that I don't care about what happens in a game like counterstrike. I would never hurt someone on the internet, steal data or do anything evil like that.

Which is a hypocritical position. Simple as that.

jacksaccountongamedev

552

November 18, 2005 09:34 PM

Ok, I must first confess that I have not read the majority of this thread. There is just too much material to go through, but I still wish to voice my opinion on this topic.

Let just forget the simulation / reality issues, the wills of the other players and whether or not you have the right to destroy their fun. Instead I’m going to talk about why you might wish to mangle the game by killing your team mates. Throughout the original article the writer talks about how much fun it is to see and hear the distraught reactions of his victims. He/you team-kills to see their frustrated responses. But why?

Because you find pleasure in other peoples displeasure?

It’s not a very honourable trait. Apparently it’s just so much fun to see other people angry and upset. And sadly enough this is not all that uncommon. I’m not referring about Counter Strike. I’m referring to the read world. The same philosophy applies to your common schoolyard bullies. The difference though is the motivations. Let’s take a look at a few (I’m not saying all or any of these apply Vanke) in and outside the realms of Counter Strike.

You wish to increase your own social standing by demoting others.

You simply believe you are superior *and* like to see your inferiors suffer.

You are dissatisfied and frustrated yourself (perhaps with your own life) and therefore find salvation in dissatisfying and frustrating others.

You seek attention – I believe this is true for all too some degrees.

And finally, to some degree, because it’s part of human nature. This seems to be the most likely case for Venke, who otherwise assures us that he is a decent person.

Finding pleasure in the displeasure of others in not a good way to think and often indicates insecurity and unhappiness. I don’t play Counter Strike myself, but if I did I would not try to make the serious players cry because I think it would be fun. Perhaps you should think about why you find it fun next time you play. I’d actually like to know.

I’m not trying to be offensive. Fortunately it’s not much of a problem for me because the only online game I play frequently is Subspace, where ‘internet jerks’ just get laughed at.

Oh, one last thing:

Quote:I hold the door open for my girlfriend.

Quote:Anyways more will come later I have to go meet my girlfriend for dinner, infact i think i'm going to be late, so for you people that hate me because of a stupid belief I hold. Your gonna be happy i'm not gettin any tongiht.

Quote:Hell my girlfriend thinks the computer is a complete waste of time and would be happy if I never touched it ever.

That’s just from the posts I’ve read. I’m happy you’re in a sexually active relationship, but why are you so compelled to tell us? Perhaps I’m being inappropriate now - I just like enjoy questioning people motives.

Jackson Allan

-----------Autumn Fog - A 2D Action Wargame

nprz

692

November 18, 2005 10:43 PM

Quote:Original post by jack_1313
I’m not trying to be offensive. Fortunately it’s not much of a problem for me because the only online game I play frequently is Subspace, where ‘internet jerks’ just get laughed at.

Jackson Allan

Subspace had its problems, especially with team oriented games like Powerball (Some players would grab the ball and intentionally give it to the opposing team) and I think those people got the same laughs and fun that Vanke gets from TKing.

Being anonymous on the Internet brings out a different (worse) side to some people.

I wonder if Vanke would have acted this way if it wasn't played online but rather as a LAN. Since he is no longer anonymous, would he be willing to ruin other people's (even strangers, but who could be within reach of him) fun?

bjle

322

November 18, 2005 11:10 PM

A lot of people have said that the a large part of what makes a TKer annoying, is that he is trying to annoy you. And if an opponent is trying to annoy you, it's not so bad because he's just playing the way the game was meant to be played.

But really, a TKer is playing within the ruleset of the game just like some uber-sniper who kills every enemy is. Neither of them are "cheating," both are trying to annoy you, both are ruining the game for others, and both are (in all probability) exploiting some game mechanic to do so. Yet from this thread, it seems like nobody would be even nearly as angry at the sniper as at the TKer.

The only thing Vanke said that warrants all this is that he wanted to "hear their cries of frustation," a sentiment which he has wisely not repeated. The guy who said you can just think of the TKer as a spy has the right idea. So something changed the rules of the game a little...maybe you lost one round and a few minutes of your life. Next round, shoot the guy in the head, in the unlikely event that he isn't already kicked. You're only annoyed because he's trying to annoy you.

The issue of TKing is not something that deserves all this high-brow ethical debate! It's one of a hundreds of gaming-specific annoying thigns people can and will do in order to get in some fast fun, it does not deserve prison time(!!), and it can be safely ignored and/or combatted in almost all cases.

Jerk on the internet

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