I read the title and thought this was a thread about me.

I was sorely dissapointed at the results.

In a way I understand where he's coming from, even if I don't personally like the things he does from my (the potential victim's) point of view.

He DOES see the difference between right and wrong in the *real* world. But he also classifies cyberspace as having mild importance to someone's *real* life. This I agree with. I never see video games as a serious thing and I (shamefully) make unconcience judgements about those who take these things as seriously as their job or social life. To me, it's just a quick way to unplug and goof off, sometimes with occasional competative challenges. Seeing whiny kids (or adults behaving like kids) that make up 90% of the multiplayer population often pisses me off to no end, and I imagine myself doing extremelly evil things to them, even if they're on my team. it makes me smile at the thought. If I accidentally dropped a nade when spawning and killed half my team-mates, I would procede with appoligies and actually mean it! However, I'd still laugh hysterically! Why?

I'm often really tempted to do all of these things Vanke confesses to doing. However, I don't do it, because like me, they are playing the game (seriously or not, that's their choice) in the manner THEY see fit for their own personally satisfaction. I still get a kick out of playing without being completelly evil, and I acknowledge the fact that although I loathe a lot of other players, they also have the right to enjoy themselves in the ways the game allows. That said, when I get killed multiple times by one TKer, sure I don't like it, but I say so be it, and either (a) try and survive, or (b) move to another server. It is, after-all, just a video game.

Also, because the game is technically capable of letting you teamkill, and there are no "ten commandments" against it, it is still an unwritten rule that it's A Bad Thing.

I have found one way to release my inner evil though. Jedi Knight 2 : Jedi Outcast allows you to be either Dark or Light. For the first couple years, I was Light, but recently I've been having fun on Dark. Gripping osme poor helpless noob, holding them over a pit for as long as my energy could withstand and procede to let them fall to their death. Rinse, repeat. The more the victim whines and calls me a CCHEATZOR!!1 the better! It fuels my sadistic satisfaction and I have no guilt whatsoever. I know I can get away with it because of the very nature of the game: Dark vs Light. When you're Dark, you're almost expected to be wicked evil and cruel! The game offers me powers that are practically designed to piss others off, so I take them. I don't do crap like crashing the server or using some flying exploit, because those were't intended to be i nthe game (like TKing). However, Grip was. I use it, and smile when inflicting pain on those other players who take the game far too seriously. Someone does it to me? So be it, I tell myself that I would of probably done it to the other person had I had the chance. I don't whine, I respawn, and I get even.

So in some ways, I see where he's coming from. But I wouldn't do it personally.

Quote:Original post by Sneftel

Quote:Original post by templewulf
Do you think an analogy would help here? I think it's been tried with little effect, but I'm going ahead anyway.

Analogies aren't proof. Regardless, that's sort of what I was getting at with my request for him to codify his moral rules: determining what, if anything, makes video games so special that he needs to fundamentally alter his moral stance when he steps within a certain distance of them.

I know it's not nearly as solid as a proof, but your arguments (while excellent) seem to be useless.

Maybe he's Immune to Informal Logic; have you tried ice magic? [grin]

Quote:Original post by cloudscapes
[...]He DOES see the difference between right and wrong in the *real* world. But he also classifies cyberspace as having mild importance to someone's *real* life. This I agree with. I never see video games as a serious thing and I (shamefully) make unconcience judgements about those who take these things as seriously as their job or social life.[...]

I think you misunderstand. When you interfere with somebody else's ability to play a game, you're affecting them in the real world, regardless of whether the game was a board game, a sport, or a video game. It doesn't matter how seriously they take the game (or how seriously you take the game), you're interfering with their freedom by saying "you can't do that". You have neither the right nor the authority to do so, despite the fact that you have the ability.

Quote:[...]Also, because the game is technically capable of letting you teamkill, and there are no "ten commandments" against it, it is still an unwritten rule that it's A Bad Thing.[...]

There are goals built into a game, which can almost always be found in a manual or tutorial of some kind. When killing avatars is the goal of a game, such as in a free-for-all game or opponents in a team game, doing so is fine. Intentionally defeating your own team, though, is preventing other people from playing the game and attempting to achieve the goal, which is not acceptable.

I'd really like for Vanke to respond to the second part of my post here, and I've even PMed him about it, but no reply has come yet. If anybody else feels they understand the logic Vanke presented and could explain it in a way that refutes my response in the second part of the linked post, I'd appreciate an explanation.

Quote:Original post by Extrarius

Quote:Original post by cloudscapes
[...]He DOES see the difference between right and wrong in the *real* world. But he also classifies cyberspace as having mild importance to someone's *real* life. This I agree with. I never see video games as a serious thing and I (shamefully) make unconcience judgements about those who take these things as seriously as their job or social life.[...]

I think you misunderstand. When you interfere with somebody else's ability to play a game, you're affecting them in the real world, regardless of whether the game was a board game, a sport, or a video game. It doesn't matter how seriously they take the game (or how seriously you take the game), you're interfering with their freedom by saying "you can't do that". You have neither the right nor the authority to do so, despite the fact that you have the ability.

I think I just forgot to elaborate a bit more. =)

I know that when you TK and stir stuff up, you're affecting the other real person on the other end, this I know. It's also the reason why I don't *actually* do what I often crave to do (general chaos), because I would be disrupting the other person's idea of fun, even if it's different from mine or not.

What I am saying in my above paragraph is that I think he could be a good person in real life, but that he thinks that gamers who don't think like he does (gamers that take the game too seriously) deserve to be TKed to his enjoyment. I believe it but to a less extreme extent, and I don't actually act apon it.

What differentiates me from him is: If it's not part of the official/unofficial rules, you have the right to wish it (freedom of thought), but not to actually act apon it at the expense of others, because others may or may not shrug it off as easily as you.

Quote:Original post by Vanke
[...]
I feel your pain brother.

i feel your pain brother? this is the internet also. why do you try to treat us with respect and civility, while when you play CS you feel that is not required.

why?

Quote:
you'll never realize that a videogame is inherently different then reallife, you should never view them both the same.

they aren't the same. but the rules for treating the people behind the virtual avatars are. if you are playing soccer, you wouldn't score own goals or kick the ball into the ditch or whatever.

the only difference in CS is that it is acceptable and required to shoot at the opposing team. you are supposed to act as a team to beat the opponents. shooting your own team isn't intended. play quake. play against bots. play offline.

don't choose to interact with people and act like an asshole and then try justify it to people who can empathise with the people you shoot...

Quote:But i will never delude myself into thinking that they are that important to real life.

they are not important. but how you treat people is.

this is our argument:

why do you feel CS is so very different to any other medium in which you interact with people.

i play CS and i always treat the people i play with with respect, after all we're playing this game for fun. i am always annoyed when some asshole decides he can do what he likes. good admins kick people like this.

Quote:
I couldn't stand the juvenile attitude that most of the people who played had.

i feel you have a juvenile attitude.

Quote:Original post by Vanke

Quote:Original post by Sneftel
I'm not trying to get you to see my point of view. I'm showing you that your point of view is inconsistent with itself.

Alright, answer me this: What is the rule by which you determine whether increasing the enjoyment of others is worth decreasing your own enjoyment (possibly by a smaller amount)?

I never really thought about it that way, although my answer would be that when videogames are involved my fun is always more important then your fun. In real life I enjoy when everyone is having fun.

why?

Quote:Original post by Oluseyi

Quote:Original post by Vanke
<lameness>

How would you feel if I banned you right now with no real justification. I mean, it's virtual, a web site, not real life.

Right?

quoted for truth