How would you feel if I banned you right now with no real justification. I mean, it's virtual, a web site, not real life.
Right?
Honestly I'd thjink you were being a prick. But IU never said that just because something is virtual that it carries no weight with me. Its the fact that it's a videogame that it carries no weight, I would be dissapointed if I got banned just to prove a point.
So, I'm still curious, so I'll reiterate: What is the rule--a consistent rule--by which you determine whether increasing the enjoyment of others is worth decreasing your own enjoyment (possibly by a smaller amount) in a given situation?
If you look at a game like World of Warcraft (under the assumption of a PvP realm), this game was designed for open-ended PvP. For those not familiar with the game, the world is split into zones, some of which are 'contested' (both factions are flagged for PvP at all times, meaning anyone can attack anyone of the opposing faction they see) or 'friendly' (the native faction is unflagged, and cannot be attacked by the opposing faction unless they initiate combat first).
So if you wanted to, you could level up to lvl60, then go visit some low level contested zones, and 'gank' (WoW terminology for killing someone of the opposing faction) lowbies who were simply trying to complete quests/grind their next level. Keep in mind at the beginning you are given a choice of creating a character on either a PvP realm or a PvE realm (no contested zones). You would think that most people who chose to play on a PvP realm would have adopted the mentality that being ganked was just part of the game and accept it.
Well, you would be wrong. I was initially completely surprised to find most of the posts in the realm forums composed of flames by people venting their hatred for being griefed. Here you have a game designed for open-ended PvP, and players who consciously chose to play on a PvP server, yet surprisingly griefers were despised by pretty much the entire community.
I remember levelling up and being ganked by higher level players relentlessly, to the point where sometimes I would be forced to log off and relog later when the griefer(s) had gotten their fix and left. I remember not being able to wait until I hit the level cap (lvl 60) so I could go out and do some griefing myself (out of a misguided sense of revenge).
But once I levelled and got really good at the game, I found that griefing just wasn't really all that fun. Why? Because there was no challenge in 1-shotting someone half my level who didn't stand a chance. On the other hand, going toe to toe against someone of the same level and comparable skill was ridiculously, adrenaline-pumping fun. Some of the fondest memories I have of the game were pulling a win out of fights where the odds were heavily stacked against me (i.e. 2v1 fights, or they get the drop on me, or winning against someone known as the 'best'). It was like the best feeling ever (maybe even better than sex). I felt like the FUCKING MAN. Griefing people by comparison was just effortless and boring.
In fact what I found was that in most cases, the players who were well-known as griefers often were some of the least skilled players in the game. So maybe they griefed lowbies only because they didn't have the skill to beat players of their own level. They don't know what they were missing, though. Playing the game at a highly competitive level (I was in the top guild on my realm and known as one of the best duelers) was 10x more intense and fun than anything I ever experienced griefing.
Just something to think about.
"If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." -- sir Isaac Newton
Quote:Original post by Vanke And in response to your second post, I didn't tk anyone to disrupt their time, that was never my intent, i never tked to hurt or cause harm to anyone, that never entered my trhinking at all.
(from the first post)
Quote:Original post by Vanke I derived a lot of my pleasure from making these people, these anonymous children who took the game way too seriously have a shitty time in the game. It was a lot of fun people would freak out, when the voice chat was added it brought a whole new depth to TKing I could finally hear their cries of frustation.
Quote:Original post by templewulf Do you think an analogy would help here? I think it's been tried with little effect, but I'm going ahead anyway.
Analogies aren't proof. Regardless, that's sort of what I was getting at with my request for him to codify his moral rules: determining what, if anything, makes video games so special that he needs to fundamentally alter his moral stance when he steps within a certain distance of them.
Why do I need to state my moral rules, or the reason why I follow them. I just honestly can't make that connection between videogames and real life that some people have.
Here i'll state an example. I have a friend Trevor that plays on WOW to him the game is fairly close to real life, it's just as much a chore fo him to mine and fish as it is to do the dishes in real life. To him the video game carries as much weight as the real world does to me those activities are fun they are different in my mind compared to his.
Quote:Original post by Vanke Why do I need to state my moral rules, or the reason why I follow them.
Well, that's what you've been trying to do this whole time: explain to people why you would TK. If you don't believe TKing to be immoral, then clearly your moral rules are rules that do not declare TKing to be immoral. So I was curious as to what those moral rules are.
Quote: Why should anyone feel quilty for killing someone in a video game. Have you ever felt guilty for killing anything in a video game, I know of no person that has or at least I know of no person that has exxpressed this to me.
As it's been stated before, you are basicly taking money from another player, even if you are spending it at the same time. Also you're admitedly trying to cause others people anguish and frustration. Sounds a lot like being a bully to me. Any laws regarding that kind of thing meant to protect little kids on the playground I'm unaware of? If so I'm sure they'd apply to adults as well. Maybe harrasment would generally cover this sort of behavior. It might be happening in cyberspace, but there are laws that govern behavior there (spamming is illegal isn't it?) Really I'm sure it's only a matter of time for people to figure out they could try legal action and eventually someone will succeed.
Not particularly meant as an attack but just an answer to the question at hand. My use of the pronoun "you" was meant to be used in the broad plural sense.
Don't worry all these people can attack me as much as they want I don't care. I don't believe there will ever be a law against griefing someone in a game, as long as it doesn't involve money no one except the game players really care at all and even then it's just the victims and even then I doubt it really bothers anyone fifteen minutes after it happened. Or at least not for very long after.
Quote: I also hereby send my genuine wishes that everybody here have fun discussing this topic. I did.
I'm glad you had fun, that was the point of my first post to start a debate on the article but even with the way it and my rating have turned out i'm still having a blast.
Quote:Original post by Vanke And in response to your second post, I didn't tk anyone to disrupt their time, that was never my intent, i never tked to hurt or cause harm to anyone, that never entered my trhinking at all.
(from the first post)
Quote:Original post by Vanke I derived a lot of my pleasure from making these people, these anonymous children who took the game way too seriously have a shitty time in the game. It was a lot of fun people would freak out, when the voice chat was added it brought a whole new depth to TKing I could finally hear their cries of frustation.
....
Allright a little self contradictory there I see it. BUt i'm being honest by saying that I never did it to hurt anyone merely to cause frustration. I don't think that my tking ever caused anybody any harm ever.
Quote:Original post by Vanke Allright a little self contradictory there I see it. BUt i'm being honest by saying that I never did it to hurt anyone merely to cause frustration. I don't think that my tking ever caused anybody any harm ever.
You are harming them by stealing their leisure time. What we have here is a problem of definitions. I say by ruining their game you are harming them.
Did you see my post on pg7 or so? What's the difference between frustrating someone in a game and frustrating someone on the phone?
XBox 360 gamertag: templewulf feel free to add me!
Quote:Original post by Vanke [...] I feel your pain brother.
i feel your pain brother? this is the internet also. why do you try to treat us with respect and civility, while when you play CS you feel that is not required.
why?
Because it's a game, I didn't realize that this forum was a game as well.
Quote:
Quote: you'll never realize that a videogame is inherently different then reallife, you should never view them both the same.
they aren't the same. but the rules for treating the people behind the virtual avatars are. if you are playing soccer, you wouldn't score own goals or kick the ball into the ditch or whatever.
But the rules aren't the same not to me.
Quote: the only difference in CS is that it is acceptable and required to shoot at the opposing team. you are supposed to act as a team to beat the opponents. shooting your own team isn't intended. play quake. play against bots. play offline.
don't choose to interact with people and act like an asshole and then try justify it to people who can empathise with the people you shoot...
Quote:But i will never delude myself into thinking that they are that important to real life.
they are not important. but how you treat people is.
this is our argument:
why do you feel CS is so very different to any other medium in which you interact with people.
i play CS and i always treat the people i play with with respect, after all we're playing this game for fun. i am always annoyed when some asshole decides he can do what he likes. good admins kick people like this.
Quote: I couldn't stand the juvenile attitude that most of the people who played had.
i feel you have a juvenile attitude.
Well you can feel anything you want doesn't make it true, before someone points it out I know the same applys to myself.
Quote:
Quote:Original post by Vanke
Quote:Original post by Sneftel I'm not trying to get you to see my point of view. I'm showing you that your point of view is inconsistent with itself.
Alright, answer me this: What is the rule by which you determine whether increasing the enjoyment of others is worth decreasing your own enjoyment (possibly by a smaller amount)?
I never really thought about it that way, although my answer would be that when videogames are involved my fun is always more important then your fun. In real life I enjoy when everyone is having fun.
why?
Becuase to me social interaction on a personal level is more important then social interaction in a videogame. I guess that's what it really boils down to. I can't connect with someone in a videogame like CS. It doesn't allow me that chance to.
Quote:
Quote:Original post by Oluseyi
Quote:Original post by Vanke <lameness>
How would you feel if I banned you right now with no real justification. I mean, it's virtual, a web site, not real life.
